Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast! Join your host, highly sought-after speaker and experienced Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA in this engaging and down to earth show. Along with her guests, Jacki offers clear and detailed advice to improve your financial decisions before, during and after divorce so you can survive divorce rich! New episodes are posted every other Thursday! You can reach Jacki through her Michigan-based firm, Roessler Divorce Consulting, located at 600 S. Adams, Suite 300, Birmingham, MI 48009 or by email at jacqueline@roesslerdivorce.com.
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
A QDRO "Horror Story" with former client, Brooke
Have you ever wondered how long it might take to get your money from a QDRO after your divorce is final?
This episode is not just about the dry legalities of divorce; it's a first-hand account of the emotional rollercoaster that can accompany the division of assets. As Brooke narrates the impact on her finances of QDRO processing delays, you'll understand the weight of patience and self-advocacy,
Her personal experiences emphasize the mental fortitude necessary to claim one's fair share and the proactive strategies required to safeguard your financial wellbeing.
Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of, or considering, divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things. To many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial to Divorce Rich.
Speaker 1:This is Jackie Ressler, and this is the inaugural new episode actually the brand new episode of this show. The previous episodes that we've been posting are from my prior podcast, so I'm so excited and this is a topic that I have wanted to cover since the very beginning of podcasting, when I started two years ago. So today, my guest is Brooke and she is a former client of mine, and I'm thrilled that she's willing to share her story because it's so important. If you're going to be getting a quadro, which is a qualified domestic relations order it's called a quadro for short. If you're going to be getting any part of your former stylist's retirement accounts, this episode that you need to listen to before you even start filling out the paperwork, so welcome.
Speaker 2:Brooke. Thank you, jackie, pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1:So let's start at the, I guess at the beginning. So, brooke, your case was a collaborative case and for those people in our audience that are familiar with collaborative or maybe are not familiar with collaborative, in a collaborative case both parties have an attorney. There's usually a financial neutral and sometimes a mental health professional. Everyone is trained in the collaborative process. So it's not just yeah, we're going to sit together in a room and we're going to be collaborative. It's actually a formal training process that all the professionals have to go through and then a lot of times, people think that a collaborative case is easier In this situation. I don't really know necessarily that it was especially for these complications with the quadros. So what was your overall impression of the process that you went through in the divorce collaborative, and I know you can't compare it to a process that you didn't go through divorce collaborative and I know you can't compare it to a process that you didn't go through. But how did you find this process? Did it prepare you for what would come after with regard to the quadros?
Speaker 2:You know what, jackie? I don't know that it did. But that being said, I went into the collaborative process because I thought it was important, because we do have young children, so I really wanted that. You know that was really my main goal of going collaborative. In retrospect I may have gone through litigation just to be quicker about it, but again, the hang up. You know it's a lot to get people in the collaborative process, set up meetings and adjust everyone's schedules. If someone has a family emergency, that kind of all plays into the process and you don't realize that when you're going into it.
Speaker 1:Right, so how long was the process from beginning to end?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to say approximately, I think I have to say two and a half years. And the quadro, of course, plays a huge part in this process. And you know, I told you earlier cue the scary music, because I had no idea what was. You know what was going to come down the pike, or rather not come down the pike, what was. You know what?
Speaker 1:was going to come down the pike, or rather not come down the pike, right, exactly. So, um, from your perspective, what do you think when? Well, can you explain what was the? What was the initial problem?
Speaker 2:with the quadros. Well, the initial problem with the quadros was, I think, that um why I think I and I can say this I think that my you know, my now ex-husband wasn't completely honest with the assets that he had, because he's significantly older than me and we've been married for over 10 years and we have minor children, so I think that that was part of it. Even finding that asset or the retirement was an issue at first too. But once we found that the quadro was mentioned and there was a situation, I think, with the file needs a case number.
Speaker 1:Right. Yes, that is a good point when you're going through a divorce. Generally, if you're going through the typical litigated process, the case is filed and then the court's docket starts counting down and so you're assigned a judge and a case number With a collaborative process the way that it's done often in Michigan and it's done differently in different states and different counties too, but the way that it's typically done is that you have the full agreement put together and then you file. So you might not actually file the case with the court until a year into the process because you are still negotiating and trying to come up with a settlement. So in order to have a quadro prepared, you have to have a case filed.
Speaker 1:So one of the requirements for a quadro you don't have to be divorced. The person that can get the money it can either be a current spouse, a former spouse, a child or a dependent of the person that owns the retirement account, but you have to have a case filed. And so that's where in your situation, because there was a lack of transparency about what assets were owned. That's definitely true, and once we knew that we were going to need to free up some cash, I think it would have been better to be able to get those quadros going even during the divorce process. So that was one hurdle that we weren't able to overcome. So I always think this is confusing.
Speaker 1:So, even though the only thing that's going to get you the money when you get divorced is the quadro, so the quadro is like it's the plan administrator. It's you know that, the plan administrator, the company that manages the actual 401k plan or the pension plan. They're the gatekeeper and they have ultimate authority to make a decision and it can take them, as you've seen here, in this situation. They have unlimited amount of time to make their decision and they don't care about your life and whether or not you know you need the money. Um, so it almost as if in this, in your situation, everything that could go wrong did go wrong.
Speaker 2:So even the plan administrator um, even switched halfway through the process. I mean, I think they got bought out or something, so that all switched again. And you know you, I literally, I think I told you this. I literally would call them, be on hold for almost an hour and then when it would connect, it would disconnect. I got hung up on, I bet you, four or five times after being on hold for over 45 minutes each time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's awful, and you know. Yeah, it's awful, and again it's difficult, because did you even know? Did you know what questions to ask?
Speaker 2:No, I did not. And I know you had to be on the phone with me at least during one of those phone calls, and that's a whole nother thing, too, that you don't expect this to take so much time or energy, and the energy factor is almost a bigger deal than the money at different points of this process, because it's already emotionally charged and you're already thinking well, you owe me this money. And when they fight back, even the plan administrator, who has no idea what's going on, feels like everyone's out to get you because you're like, listen, I just need this money. This is the settlement. I'm not asking for anything far beyond that. I think that's important too is that this money in the quadros was actually the divorce settlement, and the divorce has been final for a year and the money is still, you know, was still not out there. So it was one of those things where people would say, well, are you divorced? Well, yes, I am, legally, but not financially.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly. And what were the? I mean, were there things that were delayed in your life because you didn't? You weren't able to get the money when the divorce? So the divorce was done and then it took another. It's got to be another year, right, that it took to get the money from the quadro.
Speaker 2:A year and almost a year and five months, a year and a half, almost yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, and then there was more than one quadro.
Speaker 2:Yes, there were three quadros and I think that's interesting too, because we knew we needed three quadros because of the three different accounts. There's the quadro filing fee, there's all these different fees associated with these quadros, and then that almost turns into an argument as far as who's paying that fee right To get pay your fee, to get your money. It's like an ATM, only a higher end ATM.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so it's not. So you pay the quadruped repair which for each one of the orders, and then on top of it, a lot of times the plan administrator takes a fee also. So depending on what kind of plan it is, they are allowed to take whatever they think is a reasonable fee. And so it could be for some companies, like I know that, fidelity, for example, if you use their model, the company model, they will say right in their forms that they're going to charge. You hire someone to write it specifically for your case. It's going to be $1,500 or $2,000. I just had a case that I saw on a client where they were charged by the hour for the plan administrator to review a very simple quadro.
Speaker 2:So that is well so. That is the plan administrator, not even the quadro preparer that you hire as a person getting divorced.
Speaker 1:That's right and that's usually a surprise after the divorce is done, right. Then now you've got to pay somebody else, and then on top of it, in your situation you ended up having to hire your attorney again, right, and so then you had additional attorney again Right, and so then I did additional attorney fees.
Speaker 2:Right, so for probably the last, well, I mean, I guess, since for a year that this was out there, the you know, the quadro money, all the phone calls and everything, but I couldn't, you know, there was a point where I couldn't chase it down anymore. And I know that my ex-husband, he, would try to call the plan administrator, but at one point he was eventually told oh, we can no longer talk to you about this because your name's no longer on it. It is now her name. She's the one who has to call. Well, you have to call, no, you have to call, and it just goes round and round.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I did. I did have to reemploy my attorney because there was no way that I was, I was going to be able to get through to this, and then he had already, you know, he had taken care of his attorney, paid him off and on his end it was a done deal, but on my end, because this was the settlement money and we have minor children, that it was. You know. It was like, okay, well, I'm going to have to be the one responsible to hire my attorney again and now pay her fees for doing this and whatever fees may come out of it again or still.
Speaker 1:And when you say it was a settlement money. I just want to clarify for everybody listening. So when you say that, what you mean is that it was money to pay off child support that was back in my part of the house and your part of the house came from, and again, that's very common that we agree to that in a settlement. To be creative, so let's say that in your case he wasn't able to financially pay you your equity in the house, right?
Speaker 2:Ironically, I guess I can say that. So he was not able to pay me out of the house because of the financial situation. But then at one point he did refinance the house and that was even before, uh, before the divorce was final. And, if you know, he had told me in full honesty, he told me that it was to, you know, pay off the taxes or whatever. And then, uh, so yeah, so I signed the quick claim deed and was then taken off of the house. Oh, my goodness yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't even remember this. This is. This just adds to the nightmare. You're right, I do. We need to add some scary music.
Speaker 2:We need to add some bee screams and scary music, because it is, you know, I, I literally. Yeah, it's bad.
Speaker 1:Well, we can laugh about it now because it's, it's, it's done and you did get the money on that one account. But yeah, so there's not only the so and again. This is really common where we will have, especially right now, frank, because you know, when your case was going down, interest rates were stabilized at a low rate and we're continuing to go lower. Now they're high again.
Speaker 1:So I'm in a situation with many of my current clients where their mortgage rate is at three and a quarter percent, or some of them under three current rates would be 6.75, seven and a half some of them. So they really don't want to refinance, they want to keep that loan in place and it often comes up well, we'll just pay the other spouse out of retirement assets and we'll gross it up to make sure that it's the equal amount, because they're going to have to pay taxes on it from retirement. But the idea that you're going to get the money right away, I think even in the best case situation where they don't run into every single problem the way that you did, it's going to be three to six months at least until they get the money, and I don't think that clients always understand just how long it takes for a typical quadro to go through. Let alone you know what happens if it takes a year and a half and in the interim you lost your job right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I lost my job. Yep, I lost my job, and you know we do have joint custody, so it wasn't. But when? I? I will say too that when I lost my job, I was told to file for Refile for child support. You know, because I had no income coming in Right and so and this is on me, you know, because I try to be I don't even know what the accommodate, yes, yes, I try to be accommodating, right, and I do it for the kids, and so I never, I never did that, and and part of the reason I never did that was because he said well, you know what, when the quadro finally comes, instead of filing for more child support, I'll just pay you out of that. How do you think that worked out?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and again, that's why you know everything. Everything needs to be written down right and everything it's yeah. I don't think that people think about what's going to happen in the interim. And if you're dependent on that money to live, to pay your bills, like you're saying, that was your part of the settlement. It's not just a matter. For a lot of people it's just well, I'm going to get that money in retirement, so I don't care how long it takes, I'm going to wait anyway. But for many people they're in your situation and that is what they're going to be living on. It would be good to know in advance that it may end up taking a really long time. Yeah, I mean, and I didn't prepare the quadras in your case, but this has been really eye-opening to me about again, a firsthand example of what kinds of things can go wrong in a situation where somebody really needs the money.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't like I was sitting on a bunch of cash right and just insisting on this money. This was not. You know, that was not the case.
Speaker 2:And to go through, you know, honestly, you know to go through like two holidays when you have young you know young kids or you know two 12 year olds and you're like in their birthday and everything, and you're thinking, oh well, I can't really do this right now just because of the money situation, you know. But you learn and and I won't ever get married again I'm saying I don't have a, I do. I'll say, well, do you know what a quadro is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that, um, you have a great attitude about it too, and a lot of people I think that you're very intelligent and a lot of people wouldn't have known what to even do and I think that you're persistent. But there were so many people I've had cases where people would be 10 years after the divorce and they never even filed the quadro Wow and so they're just really complacent about it and they don't understand until they need it. So I mean you shouldn't give yourself a huge pat on the back that you achieved, getting the money that you did, because without your persistence and your I think that's another really good important point for our audience is that don't accept a no or don't accept somebody that you wait online for an hour and you got hung up on Come back.
Speaker 2:There's no one that's going to care more about your financial life than you, and so you have to step into the driver's seat and be your own advocate, which is unfortunate, but I think that's what you had to do you're going through a divorce and you're already obviously upset or angry or whatever emotions you're feeling, but somehow this financial aspect, it adds a whole nother layer of like hurt and anger, and because somehow it comes down to like, well, this is what I'm worth, or I'm not worth to you, even when you're going through a divorce. And I say that just because I think people should be prepared for that aspect as well, you know, to have this be an extra hit on their spirit or, just, you know, their self-esteem, honestly, or confidence, because you're fighting constantly for something that is, you know, is yours.
Speaker 1:It's OT, right, and I think a lot you hit the nail on the head and a lot of women I think you know that idea of am I? This is what I'm entitled to, and being able to say that to someone and really stand up for yourself is difficult to do.
Speaker 2:So I guess you know, I guess the whole aspect of you know where you think you have this. You know I looked at the quadros for a while as, oh well, that's just like money in the bank, right, it'll be there when I need it. And then I eventually needed it when I lost my job and it still wasn't there. And so what you said you know be your own advocate and really be persistent and know that who you're dealing with I mean, I would deal with you all day long, jackie, you were amazing. The plan administrator. Not so much because they don't, they don't care, they don't need to care.
Speaker 1:They're awful and there is, you know it's. What's really interesting is that they they have the final say. I don't think a lot of people understand that, but the way that the Quadro system is set up, the federal government gives them ultimate authority and there's no time limit. They can make their decision. It can, you know. They can take as long as they want to make the decision. It doesn't have to be done within, you know, three months or you know there isn't any period of time that they have to make it within, unless the person is already retired and receiving payments. Then they have. They have 18 months that they have to make it. But they also they're not educated. And you would talk to one. You know the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and you can talk to one person and they tell you something. And you talk to somebody else the next day and you're told something completely different.
Speaker 2:Or you could just keep talking to the same nasty guy who actually recognized my voice by the time this was all said and done. Oh, my gosh, yeah, I bet, yeah, it's you again and I'm like, yeah, still waiting for that quadro.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I'm very relieved that you got your money.
Speaker 2:Very relieved, one of the happiest days in my career when that approval letter came in. So that was when that email came in with a picture and said hell has frozen over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was fantastic. So is there any last parting advice before we close that you would want to share with anybody at the beginning of the Quadro process?
Speaker 2:You know, I think that you have to go into it, not expecting it to go the way you thought. And if you need this money to kind of live off, like I, you know, like I did then you, you have to be prepared for that, right? I mean, I did end up full transparency, end up having to borrow money from my mom. So maybe it's, you know, maybe it's thinking okay, this, I can't count on this money from this quadro yet. Do I have a backup plan? Do I need to ask for more child support? Do it, you know, don't be like Brooke.
Speaker 1:Don't be too nice and accommodating. Yeah, don't be too nice, and accommodating and and and but.
Speaker 2:That being said, jackie, it's like you know, I am nice, I am accommodating and I have learned through this process and I might even write a book called the Quadro Process.
Speaker 1:That would be fantastic. I think that would be fantastic yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it is so much more than that. Right and just to be prepared for all aspects of this. And you know, honestly, if people do get their quadros, within three to six months have a glass of champagne to celebrate, because that's not the way it happens for everyone.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, you're absolutely right. This is so valuable. Brooke, thank you so much for being willing to come on and talk about this because, again, I think this is going to help so many people.
Speaker 2:No, my pleasure, Jackie, anytime. Like I told you, you are one of my favorite people through this whole process. Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:Well, you have a wonderful day and thank you again for joining us. Maybe we can have you come back on again and talk about a different but related topic.
Speaker 2:I would love that you know it.
Speaker 1:All right, thanks, brooke, thank you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.
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