Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast! Join your host, highly sought-after speaker and experienced Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA in this engaging and down to earth show. Along with her guests, Jacki offers clear and detailed advice to improve your financial decisions before, during and after divorce so you can survive divorce rich! New episodes are posted every other Thursday! You can reach Jacki through her Michigan-based firm, Roessler Divorce Consulting, located at 600 S. Adams, Suite 300, Birmingham, MI 48009 or by email at jacqueline@roesslerdivorce.com.
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Is your Divorce Lawyer the Right Fit? with Max Emmer, Esq.
Find the perfect divorce attorney for your unique situation with insights from our esteemed guest, attorney Max Emmer. Together, we emphasize the importance of hiring a lawyer with extensive experience in family law and caution against those who offer unrealistic guarantees. Discover the value of establishing a good rapport with your attorney and why interviewing multiple lawyers can make all the difference in your divorce process.
Explore various alternatives to traditional courtroom battles. Max and I discuss collaborative divorce, limited scope work, and pre-suit negotiation, highlighting their efficiency and cost-effectiveness. We also shed light on the importance of selecting an attorney who is well-versed in your specific county's legal landscape, especially for intricate cases involving custody or financial disputes. This knowledge can greatly influence the outcome due to familiarity with local judges and court procedures.
Resources:
- To contact Max Emmer for an initial consult, you can reach him via the following.
www.emmerlawplc.com
max@emmerlawplc.com
248-859-0015 - You can find Max on the following Social Media sites:
Linkedin – Max S. Emmer
Facebook – Emmer Law PLC
Instagram - @Max S. Emmer - CLICK HERE to book a complimentary 30-minute consult with Jacki
Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of, or considering divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future.
Speaker 2:Legal service is a service. I am a service provider. This is a service business. So when you're talking to or hiring a lawyer, you can and should have expectations for them. And if you believe you're being talked down to or discarded or not appreciated, a lot of lawyers, I think, don't really acknowledge or think about business and they don't really acknowledge or think about service. I do both and so if you feel you are not getting the service you believe you should for your hard-earned engagement and money, you absolutely can and should ask for that, and if you're not getting it, you should not feel guilty or wrong to look elsewhere.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. Today is a great day. I'm really excited to be interviewing Max Emmer, who is an attorney here in Michigan. Max, I've worked with him in many cases. He's a fantastic attorney, a tremendous resource, and one of the things that we're really going to tap into today is his experience with the different types of ways that you can hire an attorney and the different processes that you can choose when you are thinking about divorce. So, Max, welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi Jackie, how are you? And I forgot, how much did I pay you to say those nice things?
Speaker 1:It's all free and all true.
Speaker 2:There we go Great.
Speaker 1:So let's get right into it. The topic that I really want to cover with you is what to look for in a divorce attorney, so I'm hoping to be able to send this podcast episode to people who call me and don't have an attorney and they don't even know where to begin. So when somebody comes to me and they don't have an attorney, one of the things that they ask me for is a list of questions to ask when they're interviewing people. So what would you recommend as the must ask questions on the list?
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's a great question. I'm going to give you the classic lawyer answer of it depends. But first let me say when looking for counsel, I guess let's assume first and foremost baseline competency. We have to work under the auspices that any lawyer someone seeks has the requisite licensure, experience, knowledge. I will always say I do recommend working with a lawyer who practices exclusively, if not predominantly, family. It's not to say other lawyers can't do it or don't do it, but I do believe family law is something that you kind of be in the trenches of day in, day out and I think if you don't have that type of counsel you can be potentially at a disadvantage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think I was just talking with another attorney about this the other day. If the other side has an attorney who doesn't do family law, forget about even just your own attorney, but if the other side doesn't, it can get very expensive because they don't know. They don't know the rules of the way that things would typically work, and I think you're absolutely right. Having somebody that specializes in family law is a key to finding the right person.
Speaker 2:You have to, and then you're paying for them to kind of brush up. You know, I just finished a prenuptial agreement where a lot of times people use their estate lawyer and their estate lawyer is great, but I think a family lawyer does them differently and I do think there's a disconnect. So I would say a strong background in, and experience with, family law Not so much a question, but kind of the things I would look for and maybe avoid. If someone's making you guarantees, avoid them. There are no guarantees If someone's telling you your case is going to go exactly like this. That's not true.
Speaker 2:Other things that I think are really important and I tell clients I meet with you will not hurt my feelings to shop around. You know what. Do you need to speak to 10 lawyers? Probably not, but these are major decisions. You have to have a comfort level, absolutely speak with more than one lawyer and the word I'm going to say is rapport.
Speaker 2:And you're not dating this person, they're not your best friend, but you are going to have some of the toughest and most difficult, the most sensitive, the most intimate and the most consequential conversations of your life and I think you want a lawyer who you feel comfortable in, you trust them, you can talk to them, you believe they're going to listen to you, they're going to be responsive with you and communicate well with you as well as on your behalf.
Speaker 2:So I analogize a lot to dating, but I think when you're talking to a lawyer or lawyers separate and apart from the technical part who do you like, whose style resonates with you and who do you think is going to help you get from A to B?
Speaker 2:You know, when I talk to clients, you know, I always say the people who come to me and hire me they like my style, they like my personality, they trust me and they just believe I'm going to give them good advice and I'm going to help navigate these waters for and with them. And you're kind of looking for your foxhole buddy, and some people need a foxhole buddy with a nuclear bomb, some people need one with a BB gun or anything in between. So I think you have to know yourself and your personality and kind of have that preliminary conversation about who you think you respect, whose style you like and who do you think you're going to be able to work well with for a period of likely six to 12 months, right, I think that those are so important, those questions and I don't think that comes up very often.
Speaker 1:Most people they want I want a bulldog, I want somebody who's going to really fight for me, and they don't think about whether or that they don't like. What do you do? If you have a relationship with your attorney and you're not getting your phone calls returned. You don't feel like they're engaged during mediation sessions or they're not on top of your case. I mean, of course, all the attorneys that I work with don't do that, but there are attorneys that do, and what should you recommend for a client in that position?
Speaker 2:So I recommend it and I do get these calls from time to time. Where people I call it, I give a second opinion. Like you go to a doctor. If a client is not comfortable with their engagement and representation and they've approached their lawyer, I would talk to someone else and get another sense. I would talk to someone else and get another sense.
Speaker 2:The client, at any and every time, has every right to seek alternative counsel. Should a client be unhappy with counsel one and want to make a move, they would contact their current counsel and say this is not working for me. We need to have a stipulated order of withdrawal or my case is going to be taken over by so-and-so. It is a quick court form. You might get pushback, there might be arguing about bills or whatever, but the client absolutely has a right to the counsel of their choosing whenever they want.
Speaker 2:It is not uncommon for there to be a change made. I recently took on a client who was not getting responded to, and so is it ideal? No, but I would tell people if you're not comfortable while you're going through this insanely important process, better for a little tumult and make the change to make you feel. Better than to just ignore it and then feel awful and then's too late. So at any time you could talk to another lawyer, you can get other opinions and if you want to make a change it is a streamlined process the lawyer has to obey your wishes and effectuate that for you.
Speaker 1:And turn over a third file.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. There are court rules on this. Some lawyers will hold back certain things, especially if there's an unpaid bill, but generally what happens is a stipulated order or an order of uh withdrawal of counsel would be entered and then the new counsel would send a letter to the old counsel asking for the file to be sent over. Another piece of advice I would give clients and I do this with all mine. I send every client of mine every filing pleading, so in theory they have their whole file. Now do I send my notes? No, but as a client you should really be empowered. So if you do get a new lawyer, you should have most everything. And if your lawyer is not providing it, you absolutely have the right to ask for filings and pleadings and things. And if you want to go talk to another lawyer, you can do that yourself.
Speaker 1:So that might be another good interview. Question, right Is will you send me a copy of all the documents in my case as we're going along?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would just say, and I write in every email I say attached for your file and reference, or attached for your convenience, Because one I think my professional and ethical obligation, it's your case, it's your life. I believe you should have a copy, but I never want someone to think I'm hoarding their documents and information.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I think, and if you're, and if you're afraid that's too direct, I think you could just say something like hey, it's important for me to have access to things. Will you please send me copies of filings, pleadings, correspondence. They come in, and if your lawyer says no, I think that's a red flag. But most lawyers should be doing that, especially if that's important to you.
Speaker 1:Right. I think that another big question that a lot of people have when they're looking for a lawyer is they are looking for a lawyer at the same time that they're exploring different options in terms of do I go full force with a fully litigated case? Do I go with a collaborative case? Do I use a neutral mediator and have somebody look at it? Do I try to negotiate myself and just have a limited scope attorney? Can we talk a little bit about those different options? And I know that in a meeting you will always explain to clients the different options, but there are some attorneys that only do it one way or the other, and so that's an important question for someone to ask.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jackie, it's such an important question and I don't say this in attuning my own doorway at all. But when I talk to potential clients, the first thing I usually tell them is there's more than one way to get divorced and that is kind of a brain buster for them to start. And I believe walking through the different frameworks available to them one is good education. But I think my clients really appreciate it because they view that I'm not just a mill, I'm also creative and thoughtful and I really pride myself and, just like you, the people we work with together, as long as it's ethical and doesn't violate anything, I will come up with. Whatever framework and format works for that client or that family and some lawyers might not like that, I believe at the end of the day, so long as I'm providing options so my client can make the best decision for themselves and their family, that's what matters. But if you're really thinking about it prior to recently, when we think of the movies and TVs, we think of the court litigated divorce, full throttle, a year, motions, discovery that happens a lot. Court has its place. Most lawyers will not even tell their clients that there are other options. One option you mentioned which we both practice is collaborative divorce. That is, an out-of-court process where each party gets their own collaboratively trained attorney. An out-of-court process where each party gets their own collaboratively trained attorney and, based on the needs of the parties, we bring in someone like you, a financial expert, or we bring in a parenting coordinator, and, through a series of private meetings and mediations, we resolve your divorce before you ever go to court, which has privacy, which has efficiency, which has creativity and it really cuts down on the time, cost and stress with court. In addition to that, I do a lot of limited scope work, and a few years ago the Michigan Bar believed people should be able to access legal counsel even if they can't afford a $7,000 retainer. And so limited scope is.
Speaker 2:Think about it as a la carte. Most divorce lawyers. You say, hey, it's five grand, it's 10 grand, it's 20 grand to start. It's it as a la carte. Most divorce lawyers. You say, hey, it's five grand, it's 10 grand, it's 20 grand to start, it's going to take a year.
Speaker 2:I have some people who say, hey, max, I just want to run some things by you for an hour. Or hey, can you look at this proposed settlement or can I use you for out-of-court negotiations. So, lawyers similar to me, we will offer services and processes on a more as-needed basis, which makes it more tailored to the client and more affordable. Another option I call pre-suit negotiation, which is if both sides have an attorney or if they're just using one lawyer. For example, you go through a series of iterations of the settlement and then that gets prepared into the requisite pleadings and documents. You file it, you wait the period of time and then you have a final hearing. So I think the biggest takeaway is there is more than one way to skin a cat and, lawyers like me, we will help you find what you are most comfortable with and what works best for you.
Speaker 1:That's almost overwhelming, all the different options. It is.
Speaker 2:I'm overwhelmed just saying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great to know and I think you're right. I think that there are some attorneys that don't tell clients coming in that there's more than one way to get it done. So just having that information for a client to go in and ask, hey, are there other ways? Maybe that's a red flag If the attorney says no.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent and you know some people are rigid, some people are set in their ways. You know I again, you know I really I pride myself on being creative and I think the clients I work with appreciate it because they don't feel like they are just a red rope file getting churned through the mill and I believe that is a service to them and I think even just letting people know there are options lowers their anxiety because a lot of people who either don't want to be in or are afraid of court or don't need it, it's incredibly intimidating, daunting, to be like, okay, well, it's eight grand to start and I'm filing, and I'm filing motions and I'm doing discovery and it might be over in a year. I couldn't imagine just being told that and being like giddy up. And so I think for me and the professional like you I try to help a client, you know, calm down a little bit, let the shoulders relax some. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:Absolutely One question that comes up at times. I get calls from all over and does it make a difference in Michigan? So we're taping this in Michigan. We have listeners all over the country, but does it make a difference? If you're in a specific jurisdiction or county, Should you have an attorney that practices in that county on a regular basis, or is that something that can be overcome?
Speaker 2:So I would add a caveat that if it's a simple case and there's not a lot of nuance, you're not going to trial, you're not doing motion practice. The county-by-county specific foundational information might matter less. County specific foundational information might matter less If you're going to be in court and the friend of the court and you're going to be filing motions and you're going to have evidentiary hearings and you might go to trial. I absolutely think having a lawyer who knows the judges, who knows the referees, who knows the landscape, is very important because there are certain tips, tricks, tendencies of judges and judicial officers and staff that they know about. You know, I am an example and there will be all discretion and confidentiality maintained.
Speaker 2:I had a case recently in Oakland County with a non-family, non-oakland County attorney and they just let me pick the mediator. And I picked a mediator who I knew would be really against their client and really against their client's position. And I don't say that to that. I am some such legal eagle, but any family lawyer in Oakland County would have been like Max. We're not using that person. What are you talking about? But they didn't have forget institutional knowledge. They didn't even have the basic wherewithal. So what I would say is if your case is very straightforward, it is not going to be a court-intensive case. You need someone who's responsive, who knows the basics and can process it. That is one thing. Who knows the basics and can process it, that is one thing. But if you are going to have issues of custody or parenting time or complex financial issues that might very well go before the court or the front of the court, I would absolutely advise you to have a specialized family lawyer who regularly practices in that county and jurisdiction.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. That was a great example that you gave. That is absolutely true and nobody would.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you who it is off air.
Speaker 1:Okay, but yeah, I could probably have a guess. I guess, but I think that you know who is the mediator, that were the mediators that do a lot of work in the county and why are they better for what I mean? You just wouldn't know that if you didn't do a lot of 100 percent.
Speaker 2:You know, I can think of an example in a county near us that's not oakland county, and this was a different example because we used a mediator who's not oakland county but they've handled 35 000 family cases in front of the court. So in that situation you're okay, but I I would say you're never going to do yourself wrong by having someone knowledgeable, experienced in your exact area. But especially if it is a high conflict or traditionally litigated divorce, you absolutely want someone who knows the ins and outs and the playbook of where you are.
Speaker 1:Right, I agree, I have never run across a simple case.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's my virtue, you're right. Well, you're, you know you're. You know at the level you know you're doing, you know and I the possibility of getting duped or misled or just potentially taken advantage of because your counsel doesn't know basic things that everyone else in town does.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of that, I want to ask you one last question. There is, there's a TikTok account that I see all the time. That's really, really popular. That is like a DIY divorce, you know, kind of a. That's the push that this person is putting out there and it's a late person and she is very popular. She has, you know, a big following and it makes me the idea of somebody not having an attorney and I do run across people in my everyday life not in my work life that have been divorced that say that they didn't use an attorney at all and it just makes me, you know, I just know that there are so many things that can be overlooked. So what would you, what kind of advice would you give to somebody who doesn't want to use an attorney?
Speaker 2:So I think I'm going to give advice that's different for most, and I don't say it selfishly because it's my livelihood. I certainly I like empowered and knowledgeable clients and I do a lot of limited scope work where people are capable. However, as you said, divorce is so multidisciplinary and so multifaceted and it is so easy to check the wrong box, put the wrong language, and what I always tell people is one, you get what you pay for in life, but two, doing it right the first time, even if it costs you a few thousand dollars in the low end, whatever it is. If you screw it up, you're going to spend so much more, not just financially, but in emotional capital, and so you know, my advice is you don't have to hire someone for a thousand an hour. You don't have to hire someone with a $25,000 retainer. I absolutely believe everyone should at least talk to counsel. I believe you should work with counsel in some capacity to ensure you're doing everything appropriately and you get your divorce processed, entered and finalized so you can move on to your next chapter.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think that I mean just as a small example, I was talking to somebody the other day who told me that they didn't use an attorney when they got divorced and they um, they agreed to divide up his pension and no quadro was ever entered. There was never any conversation about that, and he told me that he just writes his ex-wife a check for half of the payment. But he continued, they were. He continued to accrue pension after the date of divorce.
Speaker 2:Take me to a crew pension after the date of divorce. So you know it's very it's, we see it every day. It's. It's complicated when you have knowledgeable professionals, let alone if you've never done this stuff, and it is, you know, and I, that's why I like worked with you so much, jackie. There's there are so many nuances and so many technicalities that if you don't have people who do this every day, it is so easy to make an honest mistake and not even think of making one, and it to create just a myriad of problems at a later date for you.
Speaker 1:Right, Absolutely. I mean. I always tell people if you have minor children, if either one of you have retirement accounts and if there's an income discrepancy between the two of you, you can't do it by yourself 100% and I do a lot of cases again, whether it's limited scope, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of cases where I don't stir the pot and assurance that, hey, you're complying with court rules and the applicable law and your forms and documents meet the approval to get entered in court. And I think the last thing you want to do is cut a corner and either one, you get bounced by the court, or two, you somehow get it entered, and then you have enforcement issues later on and then you're spending your life in court in front of the court, when you could have done it right the first time for a fraction of the time and money.
Speaker 1:I agree. Okay, Max, let's end this with a bang. What is the one thing that you wish clients knew about the attorney client relationship that you think a lot of them don't know?
Speaker 2:attorney-client relationship that you think a lot of them don't know. You know, I think the only thing I would say is you know I say this all the time and I think a lot of lawyers think differently from me Legal service is a service. I am a service provider. This is a service business. So when you're talking to or hiring a lawyer a service business so when you're talking to or hiring a lawyer, you can and should have expectations for them. And if you believe you're being talked down to or discarded or not appreciated a lot of lawyers, I think, don't really acknowledge or think about business and they don't really acknowledge or think about service. I do both and so if you feel you are not getting the service you believe you should for your hard-earned engagement and money, you absolutely can and should ask for that. And if you're not getting it, you should not feel guilty or wrong to look elsewhere.
Speaker 1:Perfect. I love that. Thank you so much for your time, Max.
Speaker 2:Thank you, jackie. Anytime, always a pleasure.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to have you back on for lots of other topics, but this one is so important, so thank you again for sharing.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, can't wait.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.
.jpg)
