Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast! Join your host, highly sought-after speaker and experienced Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA in this engaging and down to earth show. Along with her guests, Jacki offers clear and detailed advice to improve your financial decisions before, during and after divorce so you can survive divorce rich! New episodes are posted every other Thursday! You can reach Jacki through her Michigan-based firm, Roessler Divorce Consulting, located at 600 S. Adams, Suite 300, Birmingham, MI 48009 or by email at jacqueline@roesslerdivorce.com.
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Prenup Lessons from J.Lo and Ben with Family Law Attorney, Max Emmer
In this mini-episode, host and certified divorce financial analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA invites family law attorney, Max Emmer to dissect the recent buzz around high-profile divorces, such as Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck, and discuss the surprising fact that they lacked a prenup. The discussion goes beyond the celebrity world, offering practical advice for everyday people contemplating marriage. If you're thinking about tying the knot and want to make informed financial decisions, this episode is a must-listen!
- https://www.emmerlawplc.com/ Click here to learn more about family law attorney, Max Emmer and schedule an initial consult
- To learn more about Pre-Nups and Estate Planning Issues, listen to the Divorce Rich Episode with Kristen Gross, Esq. by clicking here https://www.buzzsprout.com/2301773/14734693
Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of, or considering, divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. If you have been paying attention to what's going on in the news, like me, there's a lot of serious things happening in the world, but on my social media feed, I can't help but notice a few little celebrity items that come up, and lately I've, of course, like many of my friends, have been seeing things about Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck's divorce, which always perks my ears up a little bit, and I noticed that it looks like they didn't have a prenup, and I thought this is a perfect topic to bring my and colleague Max Emmer, fantastic law attorney in Michigan, to talk about prenups and who needs them, what they're for, what the pros and cons are of having one versus not having one. So welcome Max.
Speaker 2:Thanks, jackie, always good to be here. You know I'm full-time lawyer, part-time TMZ beat reporter, so I too follow along and as a lawyer who does a lot of prenuptial agreements, I tend to get this sort of news in my social media content and algorithm too. And prenuptial agreements have really kind of become on vogue lately, and I attribute a lot of that to celebrity and social media.
Speaker 1:I think you're absolutely right. So let's get right into it. What is the goal of a prenup? So what are you trying? If you're thinking about a prenup, what is it that you're trying to accomplish?
Speaker 2:So that's a great question and we could probably talk for an hour about that. But to boil it down, a prenuptial agreement is a legal contract that fiancées enter prior to marriage to one memorialize, with a formal snapshot in time, their current premarital property assets and liabilities so we're able to clearly and distinctly identify basically what was theirs prior to marriage. We are allowed to go into what happens to property that is accumulated during the marriage and we can also contract about things like alimony, things relating to estate planning. We can contract virtually everything in a prenuptial agreement except for issues related to minor children, because in Michigan and every other state the issues of custody, parenting time and child support are the exclusive jurisdiction of the court. You cannot contract those issues away.
Speaker 2:If you're a Royal or JLO, for instance, and you want to throw in a clause that says for every boy child you have you get a million dollars, you can do that. But you cannot say we are agreeing that this is child support and this is parenting time. That is not allowed. So pre-abstinence agreements, in a nutshell, allow you to legally capture what your property is prior to marriage to make that easier in the event of divorce, and also contract and agree about things to in the unlikely event you divorce. Make it a more streamlined, efficient and clear process.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that sounds that's a great explanation. Thank you, Is? It sounds to me like let's say that you're not a royal and you're not J-Lo. Do you need a prenup?
Speaker 2:So that's another great point. I mean, you're on one today, jackie. So I always say this in any part of my practice I don't have the arrogance to tell someone what they should have, what they shouldn't have, what they need or don't need. I believe people should decide that for themselves. My job as a lawyer whether it's divorce or prenuptial agreement I always strive to give people information to make the best decision for themselves. So let's talk about the state of Michigan.
Speaker 2:If you are two 28-year-olds, never married, no kids, w-2 employees, do you need a prenuptial agreement? Really you don't. If there's certain things you want to talk about or if you own something, you certainly can do one. But I always say the people who really quote-unquote need a prenuptial agreement are if you're tremendously wealthy, you're probably going to get one, no matter what.
Speaker 2:If you have a family business or family business interest, because there can be so much that goes right that really I believe the time where they are most important is a second marriage and or you have prior children because you don't want to one have issues.
Speaker 2:As much as you might want to protect, of course, your new spouse, you want to protect your children from your prior marriage and it's really important because you don't want to have conflicting estate versus family law issues in the event of divorce or passing, you can have a really messy probate prenuptial agreement dispute, and so I always say in a nutshell if you're two people, normal finances, you probably don't need one.
Speaker 2:And candidly and I get asked this a lot if you're someone who just has a job and, let's say, your parents or family have money, always remember inheritance by its very nature in Michigan is separate property. Estate lawyers use a word called commingling. So so long as the inheritance is not yours now and or if you get it during the marriage, so long as you distinctly keep it separate, and or if you get it during the marriage, so long as you distinctly keep it separate, you're OK. So do most people need a prenuptial agreement? Probably not, but the trend is people have things they want to protect or they envision having things in the future that they want to discuss, and that kind of is the main driver for the increase in prenuptial agreements today.
Speaker 1:I got it, so one more. Actually, I've got a whole bunch more questions about this, but for today's purpose I have another question related to this. I find that to me, as a financial advisor, there is generally a lack of transparency between people getting married or in a relationship about each other's finances. And so to me, one of the benefits of a prenup especially for someone who it is a second or a third marriage and they have assets, they have income from different sources I like the idea of a prenup for those people, sometimes just because it, like you said, it memorializes everything that they both have and it starts everybody off on a playing field where we have transparency.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent and remember any prenuptial agreement for it to be enforceable and to be there has to be complete financial disclosures and I agree I always say just having an every prenuptial agreement I do I imagine most lawyers do we attach financial exhibits for both parties that lay out your assets and liabilities. We also have people exchange tax returns and things like that. So you put it very well. To kind of have that line of demarcation is very helpful and in the event of divorce, even though someone can always try to contest things, it is really nice to have that. But also from a financial health and a financial awareness point of view, it's almost setting yourself up to be more aware and intentional, which I think is really important in any relationship.
Speaker 1:Right, I agree. And so there's that dichotomy between are we setting ourselves up to have a better communicative relationship? Are we setting ourselves up for the exit plan?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I personally and this is purely anecdotal I do not think getting a prenuptial agreement sets you up to get a divorce. I think I mean if you believe in superstition or you believe in certain karma, perhaps but I don't really think it's fair nor rational to link getting a legal document to what happens with your marriage. I worked for a very prominent family lawyer in South Florida when I was in law school and his kind of primer. When someone was uncomfortable with a prenup, he always said wouldn't you rather take care of each other while you like each other versus when you hate each other? And that's a bit tongue in cheek, but I do think there's something to it and I think there's a difference between being aware and practical and pragmatic and clear eyed versus dooming yourself. And obviously I don't know that a study has been done. Maybe there has, but I would really doubt that prenuptial agreements are a causation for divorce.
Speaker 1:Oh, of course I agree with you, although, like you said, I have not seen any studies, so that's just from my hip. But yeah, I would be really surprised at that. One other last comment that I have about prenups is that you know, as a financial advisor working with clients that are getting divorced, many of my clients have a prenup, but then they violate their own prenup. So they have agreed in their prenup that this is what my property is coming into the marriage and it's going to be mine when I leave, and then they, like you said, they commingle it. They might use that then to buy a house in both of the parties names, or they might take those assets and roll them together with other assets. What? What do you think of what happens in that situation? So my advice is and because I what happens in that situation.
Speaker 2:So my advice is and because I moonlighted, earlier in my career I did some trust and estate, so I really try to respect the interplay of trust and estate and family law with prenuptial agreements. Because there is so much estate planning with it, it's really difficult. I proverbially hammer into my clients do not commingle. Do not commingle. Follow the letter of the law, keep everything separate. As a lawyer, my job is to argue both sides or argue the side in which I'm hired to argue. However, if you have an agreement but then change or commingle it, I do think it raises serious questions or concerns. And one thing that's important to note and I will not bore the audience with a full legal lecture, but the seminal case right now on prenuptial agreements in Michigan is called the Allard case. And the reason that's important is a lot of people think because they sign a prenuptial agreement, it's ironclad, it can never be challenged, and that is not true. What the Allard case says and what Michigan courts hold is that parties absolutely can enter into prenuptial agreements so long as they're not unconscionable, so long as they've made accurate disclosures and there's no duress, but you cannot bargain away the court's right to review. So if someone wants to contest something, whether merit you know have lacking merit or having merit, they always can contest it.
Speaker 2:So people would really do best to keep what is supposed to be separate separate and anything you get inheritance during the marriage whether it's your attorney, your CPA, your estate planner make sure you siphon that off and keep it in clearly delineated, separate accounts.
Speaker 2:As I say personally, I love my wife. My family likes my wife more than me. If we get divorced, my family's keeping her. But when I was going through this, my family state lawyer always said he goes, if someone's expecting an inheritance, they don't have a pre-marriage. What you do is you basically create a separate trust and if you don't want your spouse to be a part of it, you have your name on it and you put your kids as a beneficiary, and so there are ways to protect things. But if you have a prenuptial agreement, as much as we want to tell you, just to put it in a drawer and hopefully never look at it again. Do not ignore agreements, because you might be very sorry later and you might cost yourself money in progress be very sorry later and you might cost yourself money in progress.
Speaker 1:Such great advice. Thank you so much, max, and thank you for hopping on and doing this with me so quickly. I wanted this to be timely, so I appreciate it. We're taking this right now. It's August 21st and we are in Michigan. I want to point that out, too, to all of our listeners. We do have listeners in many other states and the things that we're talking about are particular to Michigan, although there's something that would be similar in another state. But I'm going to make sure that I link your contact information in our show notes and I would encourage anyone that has any questions to give you a call.
Speaker 2:Thank you, jackie. Always a pleasure, always good being on with you you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.
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