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Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast! Join your host, highly sought-after speaker and experienced Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA in this engaging and down to earth show. Along with her guests, Jacki offers clear and detailed advice to improve your financial decisions before, during and after divorce so you can survive divorce rich! New episodes are posted every Thursday! You can reach Jacki through her Michigan-based firm, Roessler Divorce Consulting, located at 600 S. Adams, Suite 300, Birmingham, MI 48009 or by email at jacqueline@roesslerdivorce.com.
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Mediation, Divorce (and Marriage) with Attorney, Xavier Prather
When most people think of divorce, they picture contentious courtroom battles and emotional warfare. But what if there's a better way? Family law attorney and certified domestic relations mediator Xavier Prather reveals how mediation offers couples a path to resolution that saves money, and creates better outcomes for everyone involved.
Xavier brings an unexpected background to his mediation practice. As the historic winner of Big Brother Season 23—the first Black winner in the show's two-decade history—he developed remarkable skills for helping people in conflict communicate effectively. "In the Big Brother house, just like in divorce, you're dealing with a lot of different personalities and emotions in an environment designed to bring out some of the most toxic feelings," Xavier explains. "That experience taught me how to help people express themselves while still finding common ground."
The conversation explores the critical differences between facilitative and evaluative mediation approaches. While evaluative mediation focuses on assessment based on courtroom experience, facilitative mediation centers on improving communication between parties. Xavier passionately advocates for approaches that give couples more control over their outcomes rather than surrendering decisions to the court system.
Perhaps most fascinating is Xavier's discussion of marriage mediation—a proactive approach for couples who want to stay together but struggle with communication issues that could eventually lead to divorce. Unlike couples therapy, which delves into psychological patterns, marriage mediation focuses on practical communication strategies and agreements about responsibilities, finances, and parenting. "The couples that go to mediation—I applaud them because they're recognizing they need help before it's too late," Xavier notes.
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Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.
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Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of, or considering, divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future. Hey, if you're recently divorced or still in the middle of it, you already know that life can feel like it's been turned upside down and, let's be honest, the financial part it's overwhelming, confusing and often the last thing you want to deal with. That's why I want to tell you about the Independent Wealth Management Team at Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified you want to deal with. That's why I want to tell you about the independent wealth management team at Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified financial planners specializes in helping people just like you navigate life changes with confidence. Whether it's assessing your new financial circumstances, creating or updating your retirement plan or helping you adjust to the new normal, they'll work with you to get a clear, customized plan to feel in control and move forward with confidence. So if you're interested in working with a financial planner who you can trust to have your best interests in mind and you're ready to take the next step, visit centerfinplancom that's centerfinplancom and schedule a conversation. Center for Financial Planning Live your plan. Securities offered through Raymond James Financial Services Inc. Member FINRA. Sipc. Investment advisory services offered through Center for Financial Planning Inc. Center for Financial Planning Inc. Is not a registered broker-dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services Planning Inc. Center for Financial Planning Inc. Is not a registered broker-dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. This is Jackie Ressler and today I have a really intriguing topic. Today my guest is Xavier Prather. He is a family law attorney and domestic relations mediator in Michigan and he founded his own practice. He's going to tell us a little bit about his practice, but we're going to talk about mediation today and all of the ins and outs for our listeners about the different kinds of mediation, how mediation is different than traditional litigated cases, and let's just dive right in. So, xavier, can you tell me a little bit about your background and what drew you to family law and mediation in particular?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I went to Marquette University Law School over in Milwaukee, wisconsin. After graduating law school I practiced in a big law firm in downtown Milwaukee for several years. While in law school and also at times during the beginning stages of my legal career, I would do pro bono work for family law cases at the local clinic. Family law was always an area of law that I was passionate about, just because of my own personal kind of background. I'm a child of divorce. So like I've seen some of the, I've seen some of the good sides of divorce and bad sides of divorce up close and personal, and so when I had the opportunity to kind of maybe help others in the situation I, it just kind of felt right. And then, once I left my firm and decided to start my own practice, I knew that family law was one of the areas I wanted to focus on, as well as entertainment and sports law. Those are the two primary kind of fields that my practice centers around. Than my practice centers around.
Speaker 1:So your work as a mediator, which is becoming increasingly popular as an alternative to courtroom battles, is different than the traditional divorce case. For our audience, for our listeners that don't know what mediation is, how does mediation differ from traditional divorce?
Speaker 2:Mediation differs from traditional divorce in a multitude of ways. It's typically more cost effective. In mediation you don't necessarily now each party in the mediation may have an attorney, but if it's just the two parties and the mediator, the mediator doesn't serve as an advocate for either party. The mediator is there as an impartial third party to kind of help facilitate communication between the two parties to hopefully come to a resolution. Also, in mediation there's no pressure to come to a resolution. You know the goal of mediation is to kind of walk through some of these difficult topics with the parties and then hopefully they can come to an understanding and voluntarily come to an agreement that will give them a better basis or foundation for how they can kind of coexist, moving forward.
Speaker 2:And whereas in typical litigation or divorce case you know it's just one side pitting against the other, there's really Worst case. You know it's just one side pitting against the other. There's really the parties should, in my opinion, still be trying to kind of work together, especially if minor children are involved. But a lot of times it's really just kind of one side versus the other and it's very adversarial.
Speaker 1:Right. So in my experience there are different kinds of mediations. So for our listeners, we have listeners all over the country, but for a lot of the cases that I've been involved in, they pretty much end up in what's called evaluated mediation versus facilitated mediation. Can you explain in layman's terms what are the differences between those two and what do you prefer? What?
Speaker 2:are the differences between those two and what do you prefer? So facilitive mediation is where the impartial third party, the mediator, is. Really their goal is to try to do what they can to iron out the issues between the parties, to help playing kind of a middle party to try to figure out, okay, what are the underlying issues here? Let's kind of work through those together to figure out, okay, this is how you guys might be able to move forward in a more collaborative sense, whereas evaluative it's it's purely, um, you have a third party that's kind of going to sit here and do a little more assessing and kind of coming to a conclusion on what they think might be the most fair and reasonable solution. Here, while receiving the part of the input, some of that communication. But usually in an evaluative mediation the mediator stems more off their experience and kind of what they see and then they use that to kind of help guide the parties in the conversation to come to a resolution.
Speaker 1:So their experience in the courtroom.
Speaker 2:Experience in the courtroom, experience in previous mediations, just like kind of their overall experience with family law.
Speaker 1:Right, Okay, and I think from again my experience, a lot more cases that I've been involved with have gone to that end stage mediation where it is not facilitative, and in those situations clients don't feel like they have as much control over it. They tend to view the mediators as if the mediator does have some authority to settle. Even if the mediator says outright I don't have the authority to settle, they still view the mediator, I think, more as a person that is going to be on their side or the other party's side, and not someone they're trying to help them figure out how to communicate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which I think is something that is kind of lost with evaluative mediation is the sense of control that the parties should have with mediation. With evaluative mediation, it seems more as though they're just going to an impartial third party to serve as a trier effect in a less costly manner. I know there are attorneys who prefer evaluative mediation purely because they can get an end result quicker as opposed to facilitative mediation. I think for me it depends on the parties and like if I have a younger couple that has a child and they're how to kind of coexist with one another to help raise this minor child, as opposed to just coming to kind of like OK, this is what. These are the facts you presented. These are the facts you presented.
Speaker 2:Here's my thought process on how this might play out in court. This is what I think you guys should do for. Do you agree with this? Do you agree with this? Because there's still going to be odds moving forward and they're likely going to end up back in the courts at some point in time, whereas if you go or if you try to facilitate that communication so they can iron out some of these issues, it might promote better communication moving forward and hopefully they don't end up in the court system again.
Speaker 1:So just save them money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, save them money overall. But then sometimes you have parties where it's just clear that, like, their goal is just to kind of butt heads and in that sense you can try to facilitate communication. But you can. You can usually gauge pretty early on, like, yeah, these guys are just trying to figure out how they can get what they want and get out of here. At that point it's probably better to approach it from from a, you know, assessing and evaluative standpoint and just try to see if you can get them to be a little more practical and logical and realistic as to how this might play out outside of the mediation room, to maybe get them to come to somewhat of an agreement.
Speaker 1:Right, I always think it's better when the clients have their own attorney In mediation. It's much easier to mediate a case when there are two other attorneys present. But I think that in those scenarios there have been several where the people haven't been communicating at all. As soon as the case is filed, they start communicating through their lawyers and once they're in a room together, it's amazing that they actually they can communicate and the lawyers maybe can take a step back. So there's, I think that there's the potential for that dynamic in mediation also.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the key with attorneys appearing in mediation is them trying to make sure they're not trying to take over the mediation, like they still got to let the parties kind of communicate or still kind of allow their clients to be heard.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I've had mediations where like it seemed like the parties were communicating well, but then the attorneys were kind of venting them from getting to that point that it seemed like if the attorneys weren't there they would have reached a viable agreement that they all would have been happy with. And so that's where it's like. You know you want to make sure your client's protected and advocated for them, but also you want to look at full picture. If your client seems like they're kind of willing to be a little more agreeable, you can present them like, hey, are you sure you want to do this? But if they're ultimately okay with what seemingly is unfolding in the mediation process, I think that you know you're just at times you got to take a step back and allow the mediation process to do what it's meant to do so, xavier, you have.
Speaker 1:You have some unique experience, I think, in this that might be unique to you as a mediator. You were on big brother and you were the. You were the winner of the 2023 season, and 2021 2021 season 2021 season.
Speaker 2:Okay, 2021 season, so pandemic time yeah, it was season actually if so, season 23 but it filmed in the year 2021.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you were filming it like right at the tail end of the pandemic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the pandemic, like we had to take COVID tests every week while we were in the house.
Speaker 1:I bet, yeah, wow. So you know, I'm assuming that in that situation, when you were filming that and you were on that show, that you had to facilitate conversations between people and learn how to read people and maybe how to reframe things. So do you find parallels in that to your work as a mediator?
Speaker 2:So it's funny you bring that up because I actually had to sit down with in the game of Big Brother. At times. There are things formed known as alliances, which is where a group of people kind of get together and they agree to work together. Throughout the game I had an alliance known as the Cookout Right. We are considered one of the more successful alliances in Big Brother history. We were considered a very historic alliance.
Speaker 1:Tell me about that. What was the Cookout Alliance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the Cookout was essentially CBS had just started this new initiative for diversity, equity and inclusion where they were going to start casting 50% of their unscripted reality competition shows would be 50% BIPOC. That's awesome. Um, yeah, and so this was the first cast where there had been um, I believe there were six black individuals on the show and um, up until that season, no black person had ever won big brother. Big brother had been on since 2000.
Speaker 2:So we're talking two decades where there hadn't been a black winner. So myself and 500 individuals, we all agreed to work together and then we kind of banded together to try to help ensure that, you know, for once a Black person would be crowned the winner. And obviously doing something like that is going to be controversial for some folks, but I think those who understood what we were trying to accomplish wasn't necessarily to, you know, outcast anybody else. It was just trying to make sure that for our culture, we got a seat at the table.
Speaker 1:Finally, Absolutely People watching. Could recognize themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, be able to kind of see themselves in a successful light on a show that they love, that they haven't quite seen in the past season. So, yeah, we worked together, it worked out well, we all made it to the end and then from there we had to kind of duke it out amongst ourselves and I emerged victorious. But in the show, you know, going week by week, you're dealing with a lot of different personalities, you're dealing with a lot of emotions, and that environment is designed to bring out some of the most toxic emotions that I think every single person has.
Speaker 1:Like divorce, like divorce.
Speaker 2:Yes, literally it's oh, divorce and big brother house. They kind of go hand in hand. But I remember I had two members of my alliance where they knew they wanted to work together. Then they were willing to work together, but just how they kind of played the game and their ability to communicate with one another, they just weren't able to see eye to eye and the concern was that if they aren't able to get along, we don't know if, like, this whole thing works, because for it to work, every single one of us needs to be on the same page, sure, and so I literally had to take both of them and sit them down and be like all right, look, we all want to get to the end together, like we all.
Speaker 2:That's something that we can all sit here and agree on point blank right now. But you two seem to be at odds. So for us to make it, we need you two to get on the same page. So what we're going to do right now is you two are going to hash it out and I'm going to sit here and try to help you guys be able to communicate how you're feeling, so that to better communicate, moving forward. So this isn't an issue, because we have other things to work on outside of you guys not being able to like get along or be able to communicate effectively while we're in this game, like we need to be able to be focused on our strategies for how we're getting everyone else.
Speaker 1:Did it work.
Speaker 2:It did, it did. After that point, they were able to. They figured out how to communicate well and, like I said, we were successful in kind of getting all of us to the end. But yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:That needs to be like in all of your marketing materials for your mediation practice.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's funny because, like I should and I, but I don't know if I could ever find a clip of that, because on Big Brother you're filmed 24-7. So they have what are known as the live feeds, and it was. I don't think it was a moment that was captured in the actual episodes.
Speaker 2:I also don't know because I haven't watched my season back Really, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think if I do watch it back, it'll probably be something that I'm if I'm, you know assuming I'm fortunate enough to have your kids one day. Yeah, I think I may be watching with them, but I've I haven't watched it fully and I don't really intend to, unless my kids would want to watch it. Sure yeah Well but that was a great experience though for you. Yeah, it was cool've kind of already done this in certain settings.
Speaker 1:You're very good at it. You're very good at it.
Speaker 2:It's just going to be a matter of like, okay, learning the verbiage, the technical skill sets and things like that, and once you know and I think we had an absolutely phenomenal instructor, but yeah, so being able to kind of put it more in a practical sense and technical sense, I think really allowed me to take some of those natural skills I had and hone in on them, right, and I also think it's been helpful. It will be helpful on future shows if I choose to go back.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's right, that's right. Right back, yeah, that's right a little bit. That's right, right, and I think that's why people want to have a mediator like you that is able to talk to the clients and make sure that the clients are communicating with each other.
Speaker 2:um yeah and um, and like I I conducted like, when it comes to like mediation, I think sometimes the partners are going to get heated. You know, sometimes they're going to be kind of going back and forth and being a little snipey. Sometimes you gotta kind of let them get that out. Like, I don't think as soon, I don't think when they start kind of getting a little snippy with each other, you got to meet, hey, no, that's not what. No, like they kind of need to get that out.
Speaker 2:You obviously, if it keeps going on for too long, you got to step in and be like all right guys, this at this point we're just wasting all of our times.
Speaker 2:Um, but what you should do is like kind of let them they need to express themselves, and if they feel like they're not able to express themselves, they're going to be shut down and then they might not be as voluntary when it comes to agreeing to things for this mediation, whereas if you give them the opportunity to express themselves and feel as though they've been hurt, I think that goes a long way in reaching an agreement.
Speaker 2:And also, as the mediator, it's your job to take what they're expressing, reframe it, present it to the other side, where all they were doing was just hearing the other side, just kind of know for lack of better words talk shit about them. Right, you gotta let them have that emotional kind of outburst to some extent, as long as it's violent or too chaotic, you gotta let them have that out. And then once they once you recognize the meteor like you you then have the opportunity to prove to them that they've been heard by reflecting what they've said. And then you then have the opportunity to prove to them that they've been heard by reflecting what they've said. And then you also have the opportunity to kind of take what they've said and be able to present it in a more positive light to the other side, so they're actually going to be receptive to it. I think that's a key skill for mediators and that's something that's huge with couples throughout, especially in divorce mediations.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I think that, too, that point of being able to reframe it and get to the root of the issue, so that you're talking more about what are the goals of each party and not wiping away some of the white noise that couples have when they are fighting. Yeah, so I want to make sure that we cover one other thing that I think is so fascinating. So we were talking about how you like to do marriage mediation. Now, a lot of people are familiar with the term divorce mediation, but marriage mediation might be new to some people that are listening. What is marriage mediation? And let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:What is marriage mediation? And let's talk about that. Maybe it's disciplining the children or parenting styles, maybe they're struggling with dealing with in-laws or the multitude of things that can cause dissension between a couple during a marriage couples. One of the biggest issues with couples that end up getting a divorce, or just couples in general, is knowing how to communicate effectively and honestly in a way that's going to be received by your partner, and so the goal with marriage mediation is to help facilitate that communication. I hear we have a couple that wants to stay a couple. They don't want to get divorced, but they don't know how to talk about those things that they need to talk about in order to be able to move forward in a on the path towards staying married, and that's that's usually what happens. That breakdown in communication is what just kind of continues to weather a couple down over time to where they're just, like we have to get divorced. So the goal with marriage mediation is to prevent them from getting to that point to where, like divorce is the opposite. It's like, hey, let's sit down, let's see if we can facilitate a conversation that to help you guys work through some of these issues, let's create a game plan for maybe some action steps that you guys are going to take moving forward to help your marriage. And then let's say, you take these action steps for six months and it doesn't work. Then maybe you look at getting a divorce. But at least you did.
Speaker 2:You, you created a path, a framework to maybe help your marriage, and the goal is that that framework will help you out to where you avoid a divorce altogether, because you learn now hey, this is how I need to communicate to my wife in order for her to hear me when I'm talking about finances. Or hey, here's how I need to communicate to my husband what I need done around the house. Or here's how we need to communicate to our children when it comes to a parenting standpoint. So a lot of times people want to do those things. They just don't know where to start or how to get to that point, to where they have, like, the understanding for how they need to communicate, moving forward, and that's what marriage mediation essentially serves, as you can do marriage mediation or you can go to a couple's therapist, either one but the difference yeah, the difference between couples therapists is they're going to focus on analyzing a lot of the deep, underlying issues of the relationship and really kind of ironing those out.
Speaker 2:You might need to see both. You might need to see a couple therapists and a marriage mediator. But with marriage mediation, the goal is to help facilitate you guys communicating and working through these issues. Like not having someone tell you what's right or what's wrong. It's like, hey, you guys are having these issues, let's let's lay out an agenda for what these issues are, let's get these topics out and let's figure out how to allow you guys to communicate effectively and what. And then you're, we're still working through those issues.
Speaker 1:It's just in a kind of a different manner right, so more proactive in terms of having prompting them to solve, come up with solutions and solve their own problems I think it's important because, um, I mean, throughout a marriage, you're gonna have to be able to solve your problems.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes you need help, and I think the couples that go to mediation I applaud them because they're recognizing that they need help and they're trying to do something about it before it's too late. Right and so I think that's that's important and I think that's that's a large part I like. I personally enjoy marriage mediation. I think it's nice because you know then they're not calling me for a divorce.
Speaker 1:Right. I think also it's similar to like a prenup right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I'm a huge, huge proponent of prenups Tell me why.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, I think every couple should get a prenup, even if you have no assets, even if you just or at least go through the process of seeing what it's like to get a prenup, purely because it allows the couple to be extremely transparent with one another. So that way, everybody is fully informed as to what's going on before you sign on that dotted line. I think that's huge. I think that's absolutely huge. And also here's how I view prenups, jackie. So you're going through life. You have insurance for your car, you have life insurance, you have all these different types of insurances, but you have no insurance for your relationship.
Speaker 2:To me, a prenup is basically insurance for the most important relationship that you will ever have, for your relationship. To me, a prenup is basically insurance for the most important relationship that you will ever have in your life. And if you're willing to have car insurance, if you're willing to have life insurance, why would you not have insurance for such a significant part of your life? And that's what a prenup is. You have the prenup for in the event, things don't work out and I know at times people will be like, oh well, if you get a prenup, doesn't that mean you're just preparing for divorce, or aren't you just thinking that it's not going to work out?
Speaker 2:I don't necessarily think it has to be all kind of glum like that. It's more so just trying to be proactive. Divorce is very much a real thing in our world. If it um, divorce is very much a real thing in our world. If it wasn't, the prenups wouldn't exist. But divorce is a thing and usually you don't. When people get married they're not usually thinking that they're going to get divorced, like the goal when they get married is to stay married.
Speaker 1:but things happen like it wouldn't be nice to negotiate how you want to handle it while you're still getting along?
Speaker 2:and you still care, you have you still care about each other that's one of the biggest things is like I think it's better for you guys to maybe talk about some of that stuff while you're still in a very positive kind of you.
Speaker 2:You have a very positive perception of each other right so you can kind of figure out some of these details and then in the, in the event that things get messy and you guys decide to split, it doesn't get messier and honestly that will save you some emotional turmoil. It will save your children If you have children, it will save them some emotional turmoil. It just makes the process for separating far easier.
Speaker 1:I agree. What I love about prenups is I think the financial transparency of a prenup is beautiful. I think that when people are getting married, they don't think about the fact that they're entering into a legal contract and that there are rights that they're signing away when they enter that contract and that there are rights that they now are entitled to that they might have not have known before. And because my background is financial, that idea of like I'm going to lay it all out for you. This is everything that I have Having those kinds of transparent financial conversations. To me that's a big reason why a lot of people get divorced Is that they never have those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2:So if we start off the relationship with a prenup talking about those things, I I love that I also think the it also allows an opportunity for each party to like to me the prenup, the the process of going through and kind of establishing a prenup. It can be a very rewarding and fun process. Like you're, you're in love and you guys are kind of trying to figure out like some of the, some of the provision can guide, like how you guys want your marriage to work, like you can have some lifestyle provision in there so you can figure out like, oh okay, yeah, he's doing trash or like things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, lifestyle is where you can kind of get into what you want your marriage to look like, and I think that's beautiful because, like it's marriage, you're in love. This is great. But you're also taking some provisions where it's like, hey, if things don't work out? Because we're both adults and we can recognize that a lot of things happen in life, and though we want this love to work, there is a possibility that it won't. And if it doesn't, we want to be prepared. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think the transparency aspect of the prenup is is the biggest thing, because I think a lot of times people will get married and they don't always know enough about the person they're getting married to, and then they might find out something later where it's like you have how much credit card debt, and I didn't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I'm sorry you have how much debt. Wait, I'm sorry you have how many children with someone that you didn't tell me about. Like all these things can come out to where, like okay, now I'm getting married, but I'm as informed as I could be about the person that I'm choosing to invest my life in.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I love marriage and if you approach marriage responsibly, then I think your marriage has a higher likelihood of success. I think some people get married irresponsibly, unfortunately, and some of those marriages end up resulting in divorce, and so, when it comes to prenup, I'm like my goal. I feel like a superhero. My job is to combat divorces. I'm trying to prevent more divorces.
Speaker 1:You're right yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though divorces, you know, help keep my lights on.
Speaker 1:But I love that we're ending on a positive note. I didn't know this was so much fun talking with you. I really enjoyed this and, as maybe we can do this again sometime and talk a little bit more about some mediation war stories which I think would be interesting to hear about, I'm going to share your contact information in the show notes, but how would people find you if they're listening and they want to reach out and talk to you about your mediation or prenup services?
Speaker 2:Yes, if you want to contact my practice, you can call my practice directly. The work line is 616-219-0535, work line is 616-219-0535.
Speaker 1:Or you can email us generally at inquiries at asklawyerlikecom. Asklawyerlikecom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, all right. Thank you again so much. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, Jackie. It was a pleasure catching up. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.
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