.png)
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast! Join your host, highly sought-after speaker and experienced Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Jacki Roessler, CDFA in this engaging and down to earth show. Along with her guests, Jacki offers clear and detailed advice to improve your financial decisions before, during and after divorce so you can survive divorce rich! New episodes are posted every Thursday! You can reach Jacki through her Michigan-based firm, Roessler Divorce Consulting, located at 600 S. Adams, Suite 300, Birmingham, MI 48009 or by email at jacqueline@roesslerdivorce.com.
Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA
Could the Court Decide You Should Have a Bigger Paycheck? with Vocational Expert Karen Grossberg
Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.
The Divorce Rich podcast is proudly sponsored by Center for Financial Planning: Striving to Improve Lives through Financial Planning Done Right! https://www.centerfinplan.com/
Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of, or considering, divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future.
Speaker 2:Hey, if you're recently divorced or still in the middle of it, you already know that life can feel like it's been turned upside down and, let's be honest, the financial part it's overwhelming, confusing and often the last thing you want to deal with. That's why I want to tell you about the Independent Wealth Management Team at Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified you want to deal with. That's why I want to tell you about the independent wealth management team at Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified financial planners specializes in helping people just like you navigate life changes with confidence. Whether it's assessing your new financial circumstances, creating or updating your retirement plan or helping you adjust to the new normal, they'll work with you to get a clear, customized plan to feel in control and move forward with confidence. So if you're interested in working with a financial planner who you can trust to have your best interests in mind and you're ready to take the next step, visit centerfinplancom that's centerfinplancom and schedule a conversation. Center for Financial Planning live your plan.
Speaker 1:Disclosure Securities offered through Raymond James Financial Services Inc. Member FINRA, sipc. Investment advisory services offered through Center for Financial Planning Inc. Center for Financial Planning Inc. Is not a registered broker-dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services. Center for Financial Planning was a sponsor of the Divorce Rich Podcast. The Center for Financial Planning and Raymond James are not affiliated with or endorsed by the Divorce Rich Podcast.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Divorce Rich podcast. In today's episode, I had the opportunity to speak with a vocational expert. If you're not familiar with that role, vocational experts are professionals who evaluate someone's education, work history and job market opportunities to determine their earning potential during a divorce. Now, many times they're hired by attorneys for the higher earning spouse, which means their work often focuses on showing that the lower earning spouse could increase their income. That perspective may feel challenging, especially if you've taken time out of the workforce or shifted your career to support your family, but that is exactly why I wanted to bring this conversation to you.
Speaker 2:Vocational experts play an important role in many divorces, and understanding how they approach their work can help you prepare, anticipate and respond more effectively if one ever becomes involved in your own case. My guest brings a wealth of experience and professionalism to this field, and I'm grateful she was willing to share her insights with us, even if her day-to-day work is usually from the other side of the table that you sit on. I think you'll find real value in hearing how these evaluations are conducted and how they might affect the financial picture in divorce. So let's dive in. Karen is a vocational counselor. She works in determining wage, earning capacity for divorces, workman's comp. So, karen, can you tell us the type of situation where an attorney would want to bring you in to evaluate someone's income earning potential? I?
Speaker 3:work with people who are mid-career doing evaluations or who have been out of the labor market for many, many years, to determine if there's anything or to determine what the next step is in terms of a return to work by providing a forensic evaluation Somebody who hasn't been in the labor market for an extended period of time.
Speaker 3:Again, I start with their training, education and experience to see if they have any you know work experience previously. If not, I take whatever I can get in terms of their training, education and determine what kinds of transferable skills they have. And determine what kinds of transferable skills they have, then I'm able to assess what is in you know specific job titles that might be appropriate for them and I can go into the labor market and actually look at jobs that would be more entry level if they had no significant work history or significant gap. And then I use Department of Labor wage data to assign an actual hourly value to the kind of work I'm suggesting. In cases with large gaps, I often work with attorneys to see if they need a you know return to work wage range for today and then possibly in the future three to five years, so that they can better estimate or better negotiate settlements.
Speaker 2:Are there any scenarios in your experience where it would not be appropriate to argue that someone should be employed and have a wage imputed to them?
Speaker 3:I definitely could talk about psychosocial variables. I definitely could talk about psychosocial variables. If there are issues there could be a child that has special needs and the cost of nannies, because I can. Or the varying cost of child care, because I can do an assessment, because I'm a vocational expert, I can do an assessment of the cost of those services statistically. Wow, that's fantastic. Okay, an opinion based on that. But I think that those issues sometimes come up in terms of, if you know, I've had some significantly special needs kids to consider that couldn't function with in a daycare setting because they just manage that. So at the point in which that cost exceeds earning capacity, at the point in which that cost exceeds earning capacity, again, it's not my decision, but I present that information because I do think that that matters.
Speaker 2:Let's say that I have a client and I've had more cases like this recently than I have had in the past and in a situation where my client says my spouse is working, but they're working 20 hours a week and they used to have an executive position at a company. They don't want to work in that kind of an environment anymore and for a lot of people that might be some of the reason behind the divorce is that there are different expectations going into the marriage than what life turned into In that kind of a situation where someone might be underemployed. Life turned into In that kind of a situation where someone might be underemployed.
Speaker 3:What can you do in that situation? So, in terms of the judgment of, well, they should be working in a higher paid job. That's between the attorney and the judge in the case. My point is what is their capacity and if they worked in that kind of job previously? What is their capacity and if they worked in that kind of job previously, unless there is some extraneous issue medical, psychological or something else that precludes them? I'm talking like restrictions. Like you know, there's a psychiatrist that says they can't go back to this kind of high-intensity work or something like that. Assuming that that is not the case, then I would look to the kind of work they did and apply, find current positions that would be appropriate job titles, and look at wages and, depending on how long it's been since they've been out, I would present the appropriate percentile wage and they can go back to that level. It's a you know going, leaving the workforce, leaving the you know high intensity job, it's a choice. That doesn't mean that it can't. You know someone can't return to that.
Speaker 2:I think what I hear you saying too is that you're providing the information and you're letting the attorneys argue what they will once they have the baseline information to deal with. You don't put any judgment into it and say, well, this person information and you're letting the attorneys argue what they will once they have the baseline information to deal with. You don't put any judgment into it and say, well, this person should be making this, but you can provide the data of if they were to reenter today, what would they make in a similar job, and I assume you would take into consideration that, if they've been out of that job for a period of time, what the entry level would be or where they would start again Correct.
Speaker 3:I mean, a lot of times I rely on median wage. It's usually a good marker but again, it depends on how many years they've been out, depends on the specific job. If there's been changes that they would have to. You know new things that they would have to learn, if you know. I mean, our workforce has changed changes so rapidly now. So it really it depends on the career area and I have to make the take those considerations. If they need to take a class to ramp up, to regain some skills, or if they let a license expire, you know, could they get it back and how long would that take to?
Speaker 2:There is when you say that you look at transferable skills. Do you meet one-on-one with the spouse?
Speaker 3:So whoever I'm evaluating, I always request to meet with them directly. Again, this is for a forensic evaluation, so it's a one-time evaluation. I have no relationship with them. It's an independent situation. I attempt to meet with the person that is my evaluee. Many times, attorneys will not permit that, so I then gather information any way I can, via any sort of documents, resumes, discussions with the other spouse. However, I can get the information so I understand where they are. Ideally, I like to meet with the person I'm evaluating, but it's not always permitted.
Speaker 2:Copies. What kind of documents do you ask for if you're not meeting with the person?
Speaker 3:Anything regarding work history, linkedin profiles, resume, job descriptions that's often helpful. You know it's important to know, like, how long they were in the labor market, which is again information that I typically can gather from the spouse if I can't talk to the evaluee directly. But you know length of time in the labor market, length of time out of the labor market, you know. Again, in divorce it's not typically an issue, but in other areas there's oftentimes medical or psychological restrictions in terms of how much someone can work. So those are things that I am sometimes I need to look at.
Speaker 2:I think it definitely can be applicable in a lot of divorce cases too that someone has some mental health issues or they have a certain kind of disease ongoing that they need to have a certain kind of job that will accommodate them.
Speaker 3:Just so you know, in terms of psychological or medical, I happen to also be a psychotherapist part-time, but I mean lots of people have mental health issues. What I look at, though, is not a diagnosis, because I have worked with a lot of people who have major depression, and they go to work, so it's not about so much the diagnosis. It's about a physician stating that someone has to work in a certain way, you know, limited hours, whatever the restriction is, but if it's just a diagnosis, that isn't anything that I mean. I know people who work who have cancer. Just, the diagnosis is that it's reached a level that a physician has provided restrictions and said you know, this person can't work because of X, y and Z, or has to limit work in some way.
Speaker 2:How important of an issue is it to evaluate someone who is underemployed?
Speaker 3:It's not considered. A lot of times this isn't considered the underemployment piece, right, and that somebody you know has opted to. I mean, I've had a case recently where I had someone with a master's degree that was working as a nursing assistant, master's degree that was working as a nursing assistant. And you know, even if she were to return to a more administrative kind of position, she would earn two to three times what she was earning as a nursing assistant. And you know, I guess the issue becomes you can you know work, as a lot of people think that you know you need to love your job.
Speaker 3:And when you're going through a divorce and you're dealing with, you know finances and you know allocating assets and such, you know work is the intent of work, at least prior to the 20th century, was to put food on the table and, to, you know, give us what we need to live. This whole idea of you know I have to love my job is a relatively new concept and I think that that comes into play when you're dealing in a divorce. You know, if someone opts to be underemployed during a marriage, you know and it's accepted by the spouse or whatever. That's one thing. But at the time when you're splitting assets, and especially if the assets are limited, you know the issue is okay. Well, who's going to? Everyone kind of has to rise to the occasion and do the most they can do to offset the financial disparities.
Speaker 2:Right. Do you ever have cases that come to you after the divorce, when people are trying to modify their child support or spousal support?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've had several post-divorce, post-judgment matters again with people that are unhappy with the wage distribution or people aren't earning at the rate that they expected them to be earning, so it's definitely something I've dealt with a lot.
Speaker 2:Okay, and even people, I'm assuming, that want to retire early. I've dealt with a lot issue of big income disparity. It's very possible that a judge might come back and say, well, you don't have to continue working, but you're still going to pay the spousal support at that amount. So I would think in those types of situations where there's someone requesting a support modification, then you would be a really wonderful resource.
Speaker 3:I mean as a divorced person, I can definitely say that you know what you thought was going to happen at the time you're filing for divorce is kind of irrelevant. You know it's a loss, it's sad, you know you might have had these expectations, but it all changes at the time someone files. So whether someone had planned on divorcing and working only till 60, it changes at the time of a divorce and it's really. It becomes a. You know what can they do and if they can continue to work past that point it becomes. You know I can provide an opinion that they can continue to earn, whatever the dollar amount is or the range. I try to give a range so that people have some wiggle room. But you know when they divorce and when the spousal support is going to stop is going to be negotiated after I'm done with my report.
Speaker 2:Right, and you were saying also earlier before when we were talking, that you can even put in your report information about what kind of additional training they might need and how long it might take to get that training to level up to the next point in their career certifications lapse because they didn't think they were going to need them.
Speaker 3:But you know those are things that people you know can. I can estimate how long it would take to regain it and the cost of that. Whatever you know, it's really my job is to answer the questions that are posed to me by the attorney, like what are the issues that you need answers to? And if that's a question that needs an answer, then that's something that I can provide as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, and your end product is a report, right, and are you ever, have you ever, been required to testify on behalf?
Speaker 3:of that report. I testify all the time. Yes, oh, okay, divorce is not as much because fortunately many settle, but I have definitely been called in for testifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you do you enjoy that part of the of the job?
Speaker 3:I've gained more interest in it. It's more fascinating to me now than it used to be, but I'm also more able to. I feel more confident than I did early in my career doing this so Great.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I think that's. And when you testify, it bolsters your confidence too, because you really have to dig into your own product, your work report, whatever that is, and really I think that it's. I think it's interesting too to testify in cases. I think it's interesting too to testify in cases.
Speaker 3:I think that I work really hard to make sure that my reports can be supported Right. I mean, I have the data. The data is, you know, a lot of it is from the US Department of Labor or various government websites where it's statistically the best data that you can get on the subject matter. When I give a wage range, when I suggest somebody can earn X, y and Z, I observed over time because I hear sometimes what people go back to work and do and how much they earn and they I am very my wage range is really predictive of what people end up earning. So it's really wow. Here are the numbers. I'm like wow, that was like right in the middle of my wage range. So you know, but it's again, it's based on years of experience as a vocational counselor, years of experience looking at government data and knowing the labor market and those things all come together.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. Does it matter, I mean geographically, if they are in. Let's say, we've listed it all over the country. So are you able to do this just for Michigan, or can you do it for people that live in different states?
Speaker 3:So the Department of Labor wage data is broken up by geographic areas and it gets very specific, like I mean I can do Detroit, warren and Dearborn, I can do the Flint area. Areas that aren't covered are, you know, listed as like lower Michigan, if it's not specific to an area, and it goes that way throughout the rest of the country, okay so, you could be a resource even for someone that doesn't live locally here in Michigan. Absolutely. I can do the same research, it's just different geographic areas.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I'm assuming that there are certain jobs that there's a higher demand for in different areas and that information is all captured in the statistics that you're working from.
Speaker 3:Generally it's very unusual to not find the statistics that I need for a specific career. A lot of times higher wage earner jobs aren't listed as specifically when you get into, like anesthesiologist or attorney, you know the entry level wages are listed but then the higher wages are not listed. But I look at all sorts of resources too, like especially for those kinds of areas. I've even gone to, like the universities where someone graduated from and looked at the wages that people start. You know what they put out as the starting wages so that I can assess based on starting wages and then look at the you know US Department of Labor wage data and, you know, come up witha number.
Speaker 3:Also, I can go into the labor market and actually call employers and I've done. I do that all the time where I call employers and find out you know what's a reasonable starting pay. I recently had a very high investment banker kind of case, so I called an investment banker and talked to them about how you know how the starting wages, you know what kind of bonus structures do they generally look at, so I can look at all different things to try to come up with something that's reasonable. You're very thorough. I try to be.
Speaker 2:I have to testify, so I have to. Yeah, exactly For me. I always feel like everything has to pass, what I would call the black robe test, because you never know what cases might go to trial and what ones might not go to trial. So it sounds like you use that same thought process.
Speaker 3:Well, and I'm also. You know one thing that's also really important to me. I had a friend who said oh my God, I can't believe you're a woman and you're doing this to women. I'm like, well, I'm doing these evaluations of women and men, right, number one. But it's important to me to be reasonable, like if I'm.
Speaker 3:If there's a woman who's been out of the workforce for 20 years and she didn't hold a professional position, I'm not going to suggest that she's going to start out at $65,000 a year, you know. So it's important to be reasonable when I'm looking at wages and not give things that. I mean I want to be fair and balanced and impartial when I'm offering my opinions. So my feeling and my response to my friend was well, it's better to have me to do it than to have someone else who's just going to, you know, skew it high just to make the attorneys, you know, happy and my job, I mean. I want my attorneys to be happy, of course, but I also want to know that, at the end of the day, the wage that I'm giving is fair and that the person can realistically get that. I don't want them to negotiate a settlement based on something that is never going to be. That just won't. I can't live with that.
Speaker 2:So I'm so glad you said that that was. That is something that I'm sure people do ask you that, so that is. I'm glad that you brought that up. That is something that I would much rather have someone like you who is reasonable and looking at all of this data than just someone pulling a number out of the air, which is what happens a lot of times when there isn't a vocational expert involved in a divorce case in this particular way, information that can be used for negotiating without that whole idea of you know, having a crystal ball and knowing exactly what's going to happen.
Speaker 3:I worked with an attorney once and she used a vocational expert and he gave a number that this person could earn up to I don't know, say $25. And she was really frustrated with that because she said that they didn't know where to put the number between minimum wage and 25. You know, I mean it just wasn't meaningful, which is why I look to give a range so that there's something else to consider other than a top number. Because she said to me I felt like I wasted both, because the both sides came together and decided that this was the best thing for both of them. It wasn't an adversarial thing. They wanted to honestly come up with a wage to impute and what would it be?
Speaker 3:And they both looked at the report and they're like what do we do with this? You know, I mean, is 20 appropriate? Is 25? I mean the maximum fine, got that? Do with this. You know, I mean, is 20 appropriate? Is 25? I mean the maximum fine? Got that. But what's reasonable? Right, exactly, and that's really what is important. And and any, honestly, I've turned down work when I've been told that I there was an expectation of a number. I've turned things down because I have to do, you know what I can support and I spent 25 years having my reputation established and it's just important that what I say is fair and reasonable and objective and not throwing my opinion for anybody.
Speaker 2:Right. How did you get into doing this?
Speaker 3:Oh, really backhandedly. I was working in the healthcare administration and I quit my job because I had my daughter and after about two months I was going crazy. So a friend of mine said this guy's looking for somebody to help with this on a very part-time basis and I said okay. So I went and started doing that and it just evolved. My daughter's going to be 30. So that was a long time.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, wow. Well, we're just audio so no one can see you, but you don't look old enough to have a 30-year-old daughter.
Speaker 3:I should say almost 30. She's saying she's 30, but not quite.
Speaker 2:Isn't that funny. Once you get to a certain age, you don't really want to try to round up anymore. I know don't like to round up. Well, thank you so much, karen. This is really helpful. How would people reach out to you if they wanted to inquire more about your services? Do you prefer that the attorneys reach out to you, or can?
Speaker 3:clients reach out to you directly. I mean anybody can, but I usually get calls from attorneys. That's really the best way. So emails.
Speaker 2:A client would be most benefited by talking to their attorney and having the attorney reach out to you and just becoming more people. Again, there's not enough awareness that your role exists, right.
Speaker 3:I mean, I have had somebody reach out to me directly. It really I guess it really doesn't matter, but I like to establish the relationship with the attorney so I understand the basic. You know the background of space and what they're trying to, what they're trying to achieve by contracting with me.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, well, we'll have all your contact information in the show notes and I want to thank you again for your time and your information, and I hope that we can make this information available to a lot more people, because I do think it would cut down on some legal costs, even for people in arguing about what income should be, just by getting someone's opinion in there.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks, karen. Have a great day having me.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Thanks, karen, have a great day. Okay, it's time for our mailbag segment, where my son, kevin, will host and picks out some special questions from our mailbag to share with listeners. All right, well, welcome back to the mailbag segment, my new favorite part of this podcast. I'm here with my son, kevin, hey, and we've got a couple interesting questions that Kevin picked from the mailbag, so why don't we dive right in? All right?
Speaker 4:So this one is from Amanda in Seattle, washington, who's been married for 20 years and lately she has a strong feeling her spouse is maybe planning to file for divorce. Over the past six months noticed some changes he opened a separate checking account, became very secretive with his phone and recently started meeting with a financial advisor without her. They still live together, but he's been avoiding conversations about money and long-term plans like retirement. He has two kids in college and a home with a sizable mortgage, plus investment accounts with his 401k. If he is planning to file, what steps should she be taking right now to protect herself financially and legally? She feels caught off guard and doesn't want to be unprepared.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a good question. First of all, I would say to Amanda if she has a feeling that things are different after being married to someone for 20 years, she's probably right. I can't say for sure, but I don't think that this sounds like a situation where she's being paranoid. So the things that I would focus on right now would be quietly preparing for what might come. So that means not running out and filing for divorce right away, but doing what you need to do to get prepared. So in that list, I would say the first step would be to gather copies of all financial documents. So bank accounts, retirement statements, your mortgage statement, credit cards, tax returns, payroll stubs, w-2s Even if you've always let your spouse handle the money, make sure that you have access to that information too.
Speaker 2:Second, I would maybe think about cash flow. If things change suddenly, how are the bills going to get paid and what income do you need to have access to After a long marriage like this? Spousal support and retirement accounts are generally on the table, but you'll feel a lot calmer knowing what resources there are. And also think about if you have access to any emergency money, whether that's credit card balances, but what you might need to collect together for a retainer, for a lawyer and finally, most importantly, consider talking to a divorce attorney just for a consultation. It doesn't mean that you're filing, it just means that you're informed, and the more you know, the less overwhelming it will feel if things do move forward. So, bottom line, I don't think you're being paranoid, you're being smart. Quiet, preparation is probably the best gift that you can give yourself right now.
Speaker 4:That's it for today's mailbag. Keep those questions coming. We really do read them all. You can send yours to divorcewithpod at gmailcom and maybe we'll feature it on an upcoming show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.
.jpg)
