Stop Letting Chatbots Negotiate Your Divorce

AI is already sitting at the negotiation table in divorce, whether we want it there or not and that’s exactly why we wanted this conversation. I’m joined by Jamie Lima, a financial planner, certified divorce financial analyst, and software developer who’s building Secure Split to modernize how divorce professionals and clients handle the money side of a case.

We get honest about the downside first: AI hallucinations and misinformation. When someone is overwhelmed and searching for certainty, a confident-sounding answer from a chatbot can feel like truth, even when it ignores state rules, county-to-county differences, and the reality that most divorces settle through negotiation. Jamie shares why prompting matters, why citations and controlled sources matter, and why AI is not the same thing as a search engine.

Then we dig into what AI can do well in divorce financial planning: streamline data gathering, reduce manual entry mistakes, and help professionals build clearer scenarios faster. Jamie walks me through Secure Split’s approach to case management, secure client data collection, and an embedded AI assistant called Casey that can explain what you’re seeing on screen, guide workflows, and help generate scenarios based on the facts in the file. We also talk about the consumer version and why educational tools still need guardrails that steer people back to qualified legal and financial advice.

Finally, our mailbag tackles a question I hear all the time: should you take a pension buyout or keep lifetime income? I explain how pension valuation works, why assumptions drive the number, and how side-by-side projections help you compare outcomes without letting emotion run the decision.

Subscribe for more practical divorce money guidance, share this with someone who needs clarity, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

• To learn more about Secure Split, click https://essentials.securesplit.com/
• To schedule an introductory call with Jacki, click https://calendly.com/roessler-jacki/30min?month=2024-03

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Visit us at https://www.roesslerdivorce.com/ to learn more about Jacki's practice and to find valuable resources for your case.

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Transcript

Welcome And Defining “Rich”

Sponsor Spotlight And Disclosure

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, Jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of or considering divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future. That's why I want to tell you about the independent wealth management team at the Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified financial planners specializes in helping people just like you navigate life changes with confidence. Whether it's assessing your new financial circumstances, creating or updating your retirement plan, or helping you adjust to the new normal, they'll work with you to get a clear, customized plan to feel in control and move forward with confidence. So if you're interested in working with a financial planner you can trust to have your best interest in mind, and you're ready to take the next step, visit centerfinplan.com at centerfinplan.com and schedule a conversation. Center for Financial Planning.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Live your plan. Disclosure. Securities offered through Raymond James Financial Services, Inc., member FENRRA, SIPC. Investment Advisory Services offered through Center for Financial Planning Inc. Center for Financial Planning Inc. is not a registered robber dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services. Center for Financial Planning was a sponsor of the Divorce Rich Podcast. The Center for Financial Planning and Raymond James are not affiliated with or endorsed by the Divorce Rich Podcast.

Meet Jamie Lima And The Topic

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. This is Jackie Ressler, and we have a really exciting topic and guest today. My guest is Jamie Lima, who is a financial planner and he has been a certified divorce financial analyst for quite some time. He is also a software developer, and he found a need out there in divorce financial planning that wasn't being met. And he has put together some really exciting new software called Secure Split. So we're going to talk about that. But the main focus of our episode today is about AI and how it's changing the world of being a divorce financial planner and how it's changing the world for clients who are going through divorce. So welcome, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Thanks for having me, Jackie. Good to see you.

AI Hallucinations And Real-World Risk

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Nice to see you. So let's dive right into it. What um what are you seeing in your practice that are things that are alarming about AI or things that you think are exciting about AI?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Oh, I think I think there's a lot to unpack, even just in this very first question. So thank thank you for asking. I think the the the most alarming thing that I'm seeing these days is some of the misinformation, so to speak, um or the hallucinations we call them, right? That that AI AI provides in in this particular space, especially for the clients that we're working with that are out there. We have clients that are in the middle of one of the most stressful scenarios they're probably ever going to be in. And they have all these thoughts going around and they're and they're and they're trying to get as much information as they can. And instead of relying on professionals to guide them through some of these decisions and some of these thoughts and so on, they're leveraging Chat GPT or Claude or pick your uh AI tool. And unless you're prompting that tool the most specific way possible and be and be super accurate with your prompts and asking for citations and re- and and references and all that stuff, most of the I I shouldn't say most, but uh some of the information that you're getting back, I would consider unreliable. And I don't know if you've and I I don't know if you've heard of this or not, but I I I and I I don't have all the details, but if if memory serves, there was a case here in California where the attorney leveraged AI in their reports back to the courts and in their one of their case briefs to the court. And turns out it was basically a hallucination.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Wow. I do remember something about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah, yeah. And if and and if I I believe it, you know, he there was there were some penalties and fines along with that. And I mean presume that your your license is up for is is I don't I don't know, again, I don't know all the specifics, but I I heard that one day, you know, a while back, you know, because you know, AI hasn't been out for very long, but it feels like it's been around forever. Um and these and this this stuff happens all the time. So we've got to be super careful.

unknown 6:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

To answer the second part of your question, I mean, I think there's a ton that we can leverage and do with it that is going to make our practices much more effective, efficient, um, allow us to do to scale in ways that we never saw before, simply because we now have uh uh a partner, an unpaid partner that can help us with a lot of the work that we do. And and I I use it every day. I literally use it every day, and now Secure Split has it embedded in the program to help divorce professionals do their work, do their work better.

Why Secure Split Had To Exist

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Let's talk about Secure Split. So tell me more about that. And what um first of all, who's the intended, the intended audience for that? Who is the intended end user to that software program? And how how does it incorporate AI?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Great question. The the software is intended for divorce professionals, financial planners, divorce certified divorce financial analysts like ourselves, mediators, and divorce attorneys, along with their paralegals and their teams and so on, right? Anybody that anybody that has a anybody that has hands on these cases in family law. And why I say that is because it's not just a financial tool and a financial calculator, right? It's not like we're launching, you know, when this while we're recording, we're recording this just a couple days before we're actually launching here in California, and um, it'll be out by the time this airs, I'm sure. But so you have all these divorce professionals and so on here in the state of California, and right now they're running child support calculations and spousal support calculations on software that was developed while you and I were in high school. Wow. It is so antiquated. It is, it works. Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

I hear you. We have the same in Michigan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah, that's that's been this that's been the standard and the status quo for however many years. But the user interface is terrible. You don't really understand what the when you're putting input in, what is that, how does that affect the output? And we I we see this in all areas. We have the other software, you know, the software we use across the country across the country with um, you know, to do asset division strategies and so on and so forth, is also antiquated. And I just I felt like like there has to be a better way to do this. So that's where Secure Split comes in, to help all of us do our jobs at the highest and best possible way we can. And it's not just financial, the financial tools, it's case management, it's data aggregation from the client. So you're gonna be able, you can send an invitation to your client to have them either upload their documents securely to you, input or input the data, which is gonna be a time saver for everyone. And pretty soon we're gonna have pretty soon we're gonna have a plaid integration where the clients can securely link their bank accounts, their brokerage accounts, and all that stuff so we can have that all done in real time and up-to-date financials, because you know how it is. You know, that's amazing. If you ask them for the January 31st statement, by the time you put it in in the middle of February, all the information is outdated. We're gonna have real time.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Sometimes I just sometimes I just get a screenshot from their phone. So yeah, it's um definitely that that ability to collect data in a more efficient way in a way that is more up to date sounds wonderful to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

And it's gonna help eliminate mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

That is a key component. Yeah, it is going to eliminate a lot of human error. That's so and in terms of in terms of AI, what kind of AI components are there?

Casey The AI Inside Secure Split

SPEAKER_00 10:04

We have our AI, we've called it Casey.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Casey makes it.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Um so we thought that was cute. But uh so Casey does a lot. Casey will do everything from tell me what I'm seeing on my screen to how do I change my username and password, to give me three scenarios based on the information you have on this page and help me walk the client through them to ensure that they can consider some of the more fair and equitable outcomes in this particular case. Casey is also gonna be as we continue as Casey continues to learn the platform and and and the the work that we do. Picture this you log in in the morning to one platform, right? So Secure Split is gonna be one platform where you can do air handle all of your cases, manage every aspect of it, from the data gathering piece of it to the analysis piece of it to time management. So we can do, we're gonna do billing, time tracking, invoicing of our clients, like all the stuff in there, right? But imagine a world where you wake up you wake up in the morning, you log into Secure Split, and Casey says, Yeah, hey, good morning, Jackie. Here are the top five things you need to be doing relative to your cases today. You have three phone calls you need to make. Don't forget to run your billing for last last month. And also you have two cases, uh, two clients um upload the data overnight. You should take a peek at it.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

So it's really gonna streamline the process for a lot of practitioners. Um, almost act like a virtual assistant, it sounds like in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

In many ways. In many ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Well, I can't wait to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

That's really awesome.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Jamie, let's go back. Um, you were we were talking a little bit about the negatives of of AI. Um, as far as as clients go, where do you where do you see that? I mean, do you see that in the future that clients might be able to type in, I live in Minnesota, this is how long I've been married, what would be a good outcome for me, and get a reasonable answer. That that's the kind of I'm actually hearing clients say that to me, that I typed in my case, my case facts, and this is what this is what it said I should end up with, which really ignores so many things. Um, it's it doesn't understand the differences from let's say county to county, or the fact that not every case in my state goes to trial. And so most cases, in fact, don't go to trial and they're negotiated. So that idea of like, what is the what should my settlement be? Do you ever see that there coming a point in time when AI can handle answering questions like that?

Consumer Version With Built-In Guardrails

SPEAKER_00 12:47

I feel like there is. And and I and a lot of it comes down to again, I feel like it comes down to your ability to prompt AI the right way and ask the right questions because AI is not Google, right? It's not like where's the best restaurant in New Orleans, right? It's it's much more than that. So we have to we have to use AI as a weapon and give it its pro the proper resources to give us the the proper answer back. We we didn't even talk about this, and I guess this is a prime time to bring it up, but we've created a consumer version of Secure Split. So we have you had asked about the audience for Secure Split, and we we kind of talked about the professionals there, but there's also a consumer version. We call it our essentials, secure split essentials program. We built it using AI, and users can go in and they can run child support calculations, alimony calculations, you have budgeting. Um there's a budgeting module, uh like all the stuff. But it's it's educational, right? So we're not giving specific advice. We're not we're we're definitely defaulting to make sure you talk to your divorce professional, make sure make sure you talk to your financial professional, and so on, so we we can make sure we eliminate any any challenges there. But I think in your to your perspective, your point, like people are asking these questions, like, is this really a fair settlement? And when you go to the essentials, secure split uh essentials, and you put in your information, you can subsequently ask AI, because we have Casey as a chat bot on the site, and say, and if you prompt Casey the right way, because it's now learning the divorce lingo and divorce, the the pro the divorce procedures and so on. And we actually send Casey out every week to look at all 50 states, run an audit on our on our platform to ensure that our calculations are dialed in, make sure that there haven't been any changes to court forms that we need to be aware of or tax code changes that need we need to be aware of, and those types of things. We run an audit every week on that and send it out to all 50 states. Casey comes back and gives us the thumbs up or the thumbs down. We also have a we also have and Casey and Casey runs an accuracy report for us, which is available on the website on an ongoing basis to ensure that we have the that information up to date.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Still it's like you're controlling the information, which I love, right? So you're it's not just go out to chat GPT. It's like if you come to this source that you're you have oversight of and you're a consumer, it can give you a more educated, controlled answer to those kinds of questions, it sounds like exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

And I think because I think it's all about education, right? I mean, that's you're the prime example of education, right? You're the director of education. So a firm believer in it. And if you if we can just educate more people on this stuff and educate them on the right questions to ask and how to think things through, even if they are pro se or if they maybe want a second set of eyes on a settlement, you know, they have the tools and resources to be able to do that through our platform.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

It's so cool. When do you see that piece of it being uh released?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

It's already out there.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Oh, it is? The the consumer version is already out there.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

The consumer version has been out for for a couple months now. We've we've been uh refining it as we go. We have you know a handful of subscribers in right now, but it's like you know,$14 or$15 a month or something like that, and you can have access to all these tools and resources and save yourself the$500 hour headaches with dealing with attorneys on some of this stuff.

The Rocky Road Of Building Software

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Wow. So, Jamie, what uh what got you into what what was it that I know that you saw that there was a need out there, but how do you get from I see there's a need to I'm gonna go ahead and develop all of this? How did you how did you come to that?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

That was a little bit of a rocky road, uh, to be honest. Um I I knew I didn't have the knowledge and the experience to to build this on my own. So um, you know, I'll just share this because we're all friends. I mean, I I hired someone who I thought was gonna be able to deliver on this, and um, that didn't come to fruition. So it was like months and months of waiting and like delays and this, that, and the other. And I was like, okay, I've got to cut ties with this person. Um, because it was basically like I would we'd be six months uh further along had I had I made some different decisions. So uh that that's on me. But I learned from them and we we've made some significantly better decisions thereafter. Um I I decided because of that experience that I needed to bring in a co-founder to help me on the technical side of things.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Very smart.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, Regize Rupani is my co-founder. She came and joined us back in October. Um, she is an AI expert. She actually just wrote a book on the subject. Wow. And and I and we've and we've it's snowballed from there. Like bringing her in with her go-to-market experience and the technology experience she has. We hired a, we actually hired a development team, not just one person. So we have a development team in place. Um, then that put me in a position where I was able to hire a um, we have a director of sales now, we have a director of quality assurance, we have the um uh we have PR, we have marketing, we have all these people that are in place. Some are on board with sweat equity, which has been amazing because they believe in in where we are and what we're building. Others are obviously I'm making some investments in in those folks. Um and I've and I've bookst I've bootstrapped this entire thing by myself. I built it, you know, with with our you know, I I actually sold my wealth. Yeah, I actually sold my wealth management practice last year to double down on this.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Um I have to say, I have some experience in software development. Um, and I give you such kudos because I had a we had a very similar experience. Um, my um my ex-husband and I used to have a quadro drafting company. And so we wanted to automate some of our processes. And so we hired a developer and we had very similar experience. The developer said, yes, I can do that, I can do that, I can do that. And then um probably six months into it, we realized they were learning on the job, and it was it was impossible. So we ended up hiring someone that um was great after, but you really like that that language between you know what you want to have done and then communicating that to a developer um who knows how to create it. I think that your idea of having a liaison there, like an AI, someone who actually can speak the language of the developers is really brilliant. And again, I'm I'm really grateful because I can't wait to see some of these things and start using them.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Well, you're gonna get a nice big demo uh of this at the event next week uh at the at the IDFA conference that we're all gonna be attending. So have an opportunity to share that with with the masses at that at that event. But um but you're absolutely right. I mean, I think um and I have some background in product, you know, product management. Um I did some work in that space as a kind of a side project when I was with Fidelity Investments years ago.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Uh we were actually on the team that brought to to the tate uh brought to fruition, I should say, um, their planning and guidance center and some of the calculators that they have. So I've worked in an agile framework before, so I've I I understand how that works, but I just wasn't executing on it because I'm not I'm not it's not my bag. You know, and then having having Rajita come in like every two weeks. Every two weeks we're rolling out new functionality and testing and iterating and testing and iterating. So every two weeks, you're we have new functionality. And it's just incredible to watch this team go. And and the biggest lesson I learned in this whole thing, Jackie, is stay out of their way.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

That makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, I'm like, just tell me what I need to do, whatever I need to be.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I will hope I will try to handle things from like a 36,000 foot per foot perspective and get give you all the vision. But I'm I'm out. Like, I'm not gonna deal with the sales piece of this, I'm not doing this thing, like forget it. Because and I think it's been powerful.

Where To Find Links And Next Steps

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Absolutely. You have to have good partners that you trust to be able to do that. 100%. Um, that's amazing. So we're gonna have the links in the show notes to this episode for people that want to try out the software. So if they are most of our listeners are in the process of or considering divorce or post-divorce sometimes. Um, but there we'll provide the links for them to go in and take a look at that consumer version that you've got out there. Um, and we'll also have all of the contact information for you. And I'm very excited to see this demo coming up in Charleston at the um the annual CDFA conference that's coming up. So um very excited to see that in in action.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Thanks so much for being with us, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Of course, you have a great street.

Sponsor Message From Dawn Law Firm

SPEAKER_02 21:45

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Mailbag Pension Buyout Versus Lifetime Income

Subscribe And Share The Podcast

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the mailbag segment of the Divorce Bridge Podcast. Today's mailbag segment is sponsored by Divorce Attorneys for Women, Dawn. Their contact information will be in the show notes for this episode. They are a fantastic law firm for women considering divorce in Michigan. I have worked with them one-on-one with clients. Clients really appreciate the amount of effort and time that they put into answering their questions. They're very thorough and they are a great resource for people considering divorce in Michigan. So today's question comes to us from a listener in Ohio. And the question is: my spouse wants to buy me out of their pension, but I'm worried I'll regret giving up lifetime income. This is a great question. And I see this question all the time. I'm in Michigan. We have a lot of, we are heavily supported by the automotive industry. And there are a lot of people that work for the automotive industry that still receive a monthly pension. Same for teachers, public school employees everywhere. They receive a pension. And a pension is a guaranteed future stream of income that you cannot outlive no matter what happens. So that company, your employer, they are on the hook to pay you a monthly payment for the rest of your life, no matter how long they how long you live. And that is very valuable in the context of the financial planning world. It's difficult to recommend to a client that they walk away from a guaranteed stream of income. So going back to the listener's question, is it okay to take a buyout or are you going to regret it later on? There's two components to answering this question. The first component is how did you value it? How are we coming up with the value that someone's giving you as that buyout amount? And I want you to think of a pension like a water tank. A water tank that's designed to supply you with a steady flow of income in retirement. The payments you receive every month, that's the water coming out. So when we do a pension valuation, what we're really asking is how big does that tank need to be today so it can keep flowing for the rest of your life once you hit retirement? The only way that we can come up with a number for how big that tank has to be is if we work backwards. One, we need to determine how much water needs to come out of that tank every month. So that's the monthly pension benefit amount. We've got to get a good monthly pension estimate from the employer. If you don't have that, you can't get a pension valuation. Two, we need to know when does that flow of water start? It's not starting today. Let's say that you are 10 years away from retirement. We need to know the beginning date for when that spigot is gonna be turned on. How much can the tank refill or grow over time? That's your investment rate of return. So if the money, the water in the tank today is not just sitting there stagnant, it's gonna be growing over time. How much can we assume it's going to grow over time? How long will it take to refill it? That is another assumption that we're gonna put in that rate of return into the pension valuation. And then the big question: how long does the tank need to last? And that's where I always joke with clients. If you can tell me exactly how long you're going to live, it's gonna make this pension valuation number a lot easier to come up with. Because the longer the water needs to flow, the bigger the tank has to be today. So a pension valuation is never going to be an exact number. It's an estimate based on assumptions. And small changes in those assumptions can mean a very different tank size. And so the first component of that question of should I take a buyout is how is the buyout calculated? Not only do you need to be prepared to agree with the number for the buyout, but you need to be prepared to agree with the assumptions. So if there is an expert in the case that is doing a pension valuation for you, that could be an accountant, it could be a CDFA, it could be an actuary, it's going to be someone that's going to provide a calculation. And that calculation is based on assumptions. You want to request to look at the assumptions and make sure that you agree with them. For example, the bigger the rate of return that was assumed, the smaller the tank. And again, if the tank can fill up faster, then of course it's going to be a smaller tank that's needed. You might not agree with the rate of return assumption that was used. And if we are going on someone living for 20 years in retirement and you say, you know, there's a lot of longevity in my family. I think I'm going to live a lot longer than standard mortality. That needs to be a bigger tank. So you want to make sure that number one, you agree with the assumptions. Now we come to the second piece because it's not just a question of whether or not you're going to take a value buyout number today or whether or not you're going to get the lifetime payments. Those are nebulous concepts. What you really want to do in order to compare apples to apples, which I always recommend, is that you take a look at financial projections side by side. So you take a look at whether or not you're going to see what does it look like if you accept the pension income? What does it look like if you say, nope, I don't want the water tank, I don't want the buyout, I just want to take that monthly income. And you compare what you for your financial projections look like in that scenario versus you taking a buyout and investing the money until retirement, and then you recreate a paycheck from that account once you hit retirement age and you see what does my net worth look like in both scenarios? So we're not talking about an emotional reaction to, gosh, I think I want the pension. I don't really care about the pension. I earned the pension or whether or not your spouse is the one that was that was the pension earner. We take all of the emotions out of it, we analyze the assumptions that were used to come up with the buyout, and then we do a side-by-side comparison of what life looks like if you take the buyout and invest the money versus if you don't and you just go with your share of the pension income. There's no guarantee in any financial projection. I will say that. Nobody knows how long you're gonna live. No one knows exactly what the rate of return is going to be. But if you look at side-by-side comparisons against each other, it gives. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.