Managing High Conflict Divorce with Siedah Spencer-Ardis

High-conflict divorce is rarely just “fighting.” Sometimes it’s grief, fear, shutdown, or subtle power dynamics that make every money or parenting decision feel impossible. We’re joined by Siedah Spencer-Ardis, a Michigan mental health professional and the founder of Focus Therapy Clinic, to talk through what really happens inside a collaborative divorce and why the mental health neutral can be the difference between progress and chaos.

• To schedule a consult with Siedah, CLICK HERE
• To listen to Siedah's last guest appearance on this podcast, CLICK HERE

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Transcript

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Welcome And What “Rich” Means

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, Jackie Ressler, and I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the financial issues in divorce. If you are in the process of or considering divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial decisions that you're facing. The definition of rich is many fold. The best definition that I found is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guest on this podcast, I am going to make sure that you have access to all the resources you need to make good decisions for yourself.

Sponsor Message And Disclosures

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Hey, if you're recently divorced or still in the middle of it, you already know life can feel like it's been turned upside down. And let's be honest, the financial part is overwhelming, confusing, and often the last thing that you want to deal with. That's why I want to tell you about the independent wealth management team at the Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified financial planners specializes in helping people just like you navigate life changes with confidence. Whether it's assessing your new financial circumstances, creating or updating your retirement plan, or helping you adjust to the new normal, they'll work with you to get a clear, customized plan to feel in control and move forward with confidence. So if you're interested in working with a financial planner you can trust to have your best interest in mind, and you're ready to take the next step, visit centerfinplan.com at centerfinplan.com and schedule a conversation. Center for Financial Planning.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Live your plan. Disclosure. Securities offered through Raymond James Financial Services, Inc. Member FENRE, SIPC. Investment Advisory Services offered through Center for Financial Planning, Inc. Center for Financial Planning Inc. is not a registered broker dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services. Center for Financial Planning was a sponsor of the Divorce Rich Podcast. The Center for Financial Planning and Raymond James are not affiliated with or endorsed by the Divorce Rich Podcast.

Meet The Guest And Her Practice

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm Jackie Ressler, and today my guest is Saida Spencer Artis, who is a mental health professional in Michigan and also someone that I have had the pleasure of working with on collaborative cases, which we're going to be talking about a little bit today. But Saida works with couples, families, and individuals navigating all kinds of transitions and stages of their life. So Saida, welcome. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for coming back. We had you on the podcast before, and it was you were very enlightening. So I'm excited that you're back today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your practice?

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah. So the name of my practice is Focus Therapy Clinic. And uh we have an office in Southfield, Michigan, and Dearborn, Michigan. And um the practice sees, we have, you know, a magnitude of clinicians, um, diverse in nature. And we see couples, individuals, families, tweens, kiddos, um dealing with any range of things, anxiety, uh, learning challenges. We have a nurse, two nurse practitioners. So we also do medication management. Wow. Um, uh, you know, of course, couples therapy is there because a lot of our clinicians are marriage and family therapists, so they work from uh a systemic lens um with being able to help both families and understanding just um, you know, the family dynamics in totality, which do play into individual therapy and you know, teens. Um, we have clinicians who specialize in parking um with teenagers and young adults. We also do groups. So um we have that we offer monthly, and then we have groups where, of course, you have to pay to be a part of them because maybe they're more workshop-based. But we do have free groups as well. And then something that we are starting in September, um, we're also going to start doing supervised visits. So um that's gonna be a piece that we're adding. Uh, just because we do do a lot of uh myself and another clinician, we do some reunification therapy. Um so we will be starting supervised visits. So, you know, it kind of helps just um broaden the spectrum for where people can go. Um, and then we will be in line with some of the other, you know, companies that do supervised visits as well, will be financially in line with where their price points are as well. But just giving a little bit of diversity to allow people to have um some options.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

That's wonderful. Wow, I didn't know that you did all

Collaborative Divorce Versus Litigation

SPEAKER_01 5:36

that. We are gonna talk about a topic today that uh I want to talk about collaborative divorce, because that is what um how I know you and the kinds of cases that we've had together. But I also want to talk about high conflict divorce. And I think that's a phrase that's thrown around a lot, and people don't always necessarily know what that means, but high conflict divorce in the context specifically of collaborative. So, can you can you explain to our listeners what is collaborative divorce and how is that different than traditional litigated divorce?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

So I think um I I know they've probably heard it before, and I think coming from the uh mental health professional, when you think about collaborative divorce, it is, of course, your two attorneys, your financial and then your mental health professional, right? And so the financial and the mental health professional were in the space as neutrals. Um, from the mental health perspective, you know, we're there to kind of keep everyone on track, uh, keep the individuals that are getting the divorce on track, and sometimes even keep the professionals on track, um, so that we can make sure we're getting to the end result that everyone hopefully is at the table for, which is, you know, um walking away as unscathed as possible, right? Um, litigation can sometimes make things very harsh, hurtful. Um, you know, more things are maybe uh pulled out. It's like kind of pulling all of the ugly stuff out and throwing it on the table when you think about litigating. Um, or even it's more, it's more costly, right? The goal for collaborative divorce is also for it not to be as costly, not saying that it is cheap, but for it to be less expensive than what it would be if you were litigating. Um you start thinking about the family aspect and children, um, if kids are involved, those pieces are there too. Um, and you know, it's some different nuances that can come with some of those individual cases depending on the situation. Um, so it is literally that. The word collaborative is to be in collaboration with the other professionals in the space to be able to have the best outcome for the family.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Right. And I think it's also, I mean, I I love collaborative. I think that in the collaborative setting, we can be a lot more creative with the finances than we can in a traditional litigation case because we have transparency, we have everybody in the room, everyone has to turn over all their information. And if one person doesn't have that background or isn't savvy about finances, we have an opportunity to bring that person up to speed before they have to, you know, or sometimes it's while they have to make decisions about the finances. Sometimes we're putting the, you know, the putting the wings on all the planes already like in the air on that. But um, to have that space, I think is so wonderful. Um, a lot of people ask me when when they interview me, and we talk about the differences between being collaborative versus traditional litigation process, because I do both with clients. One thing that comes up is is every case appropriate for collaborative? And even a high conflict case with some high conflict dynamics in there. And so that's what I really wanted to dive into today because I think that um in my experience, especially, it's so crucial to have the mental health coach in there in that situation. But it's so helpful when you have a high conflict case to have that person kind of regulating the room and making sure that everyone's feelings are regulated. So, what would you say? And I know that you've been in situations with high conflict. I can think of one that I was in with you in the room. When

What High Conflict Really Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 9:40

um what would you say is what is it, what would you would you categorize as a high conflict divorce? Is that do you think it's a legal term or do you think it's be a behavioral uh term or just like a description of the couple?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

So I think that could kind of be two-folded, right? Because I think it can be a behavioral term, but also spaces that have to deal with the couple, right? Because I say this all the time. Like nobody comes into marriage looking to be divorced. And so the first reality is that you really have to wrap your mind around the fact that you're getting a divorce and what that means, and what you're grieving, and what you are letting go. Because when most people get married, there is a vision behind what you're doing when you go to get married. Yeah. Right. And so then when you go and you get a divorce, that is a whole nother life vision journey that you have to figure out what that looks like. And with some of that comes um complexities that everyone maybe does not communicate well, or I'm frustrated about, or I'm pissed about, or I'm emotional about. Everybody isn't coming to the table to say, like, yeah, you know what? I'm done, they're done, let's be done. That that would be nice, but that's not always, right? And I mean, it's high conflict, but also high complexity. Because when we think of conflict, I think sometimes people think of conflict as being this large, you know, I'm screaming and yelling, and we're getting the room back under control. Well, that doesn't necessarily have to be that because conflict is really conversation. But you can also have somebody in the room who never speaks. Right. And we have to pause to get them to speak up or to get them to voice their opinion or to get them to talk about what they want. And because we are doing that, that can also land us in a very complex situation, too. And so I think that sometimes when people hear high conflict, they're thinking, oh, we're screaming and yelling at the top of our lungs, which sometimes can be the case. Don't get me wrong, right? Um, those are typically the people when my phone rings. Um, but I also think it's about the complexity of what is happening. Like, was someone a stay-at-home parent? And or and is the other person in the marriage, you know, the one that maybe has the stronger finances or the knowledge of what that means or what their life looks like, and how do we break this up? Um, you know, the children, is there some alienation going on? Like all of these different aspects. Is mental health a part of the issues that impact being able to get through some of the sessions? So that's why I said I think is it's twofold. It can be about behaviors and communication, but it can also be about the elements that are a part of what is all compacted within getting divorced.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

You're right. So it it as I'm hearing you right, it's it's not just well, and I I think it's very infrequent to be in a room where people are screaming at a 10 at each other. The conflict sometimes is a lot more subtle. And like you're saying, people are coming into the room already with fear and worry and anxiety and all these other things that you have to sometimes unpack. And sometimes in the marriage, people have had difficulty communicating and maybe have unhealthy communication patterns. Do you think it's possible when we're in a collaborative divorce case to try to change those patterns or help support the couple to communicate in a more effective way?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I th I think if they're open, right? I think that's the biggest piece. Are they open? You know, from the mental health professional space, just like with you, right? As a finance, as the finance person, you meet with them together, but you also meet with them individually. And so we do the same thing from the mental health space. You meet together, but you also meet separately because that's where we need to know what are your triggers? What, like, what's the thing that sends you there? Oh, well, when such and such sits across and says nothing, or when they make that with their with their throat, or they change their body language. Like we were married. So there is a reason that we are getting divorced. And I am aware of that, right? But as the professional in the room, it's really important for me and my space to know what is that, what is that trigger so that I can watch for that and I can help identify different things. Like, do we need to put fidgets on the table? Do we need to have ground rules? Um, where do we need to implement breaks? Uh, so communicating that with the professional team, we go throughout the process to make sure that we're best supporting everybody in the room. Um, because we never know what this is going to look like. Um, because for some people, when you do say high conflict, high compact, high complexity, there is likely to be a space where there can be a breakdown.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Right.

Abuse, Coercive Control, And Safety

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Is it difficult as the mental health professional to differentiate between high conflict and abuse or coercive control where someone isn't used to having a voice? And is an abuse case, whether it's emotional abuse or physical abuse, is that appropriate, do you think, for collaborative?

SPEAKER_02 15:51

So I think it can depend on the situation. So I will say that I when we're talking about um abuse, it is case by case because every situation can be different, right? Some situations are most definitely not appropriate for a collaborative space because it can be um more harm than good. Um, you know, and that would probably be more of a litigating space because the goal would be to keep that individual safe, to keep those children safe. And collaborative may not be good for that because uh sometimes I think in our minds we have uh uh um uh assumptions about what certain things can look like from an abuse perspective, but you don't always know until you're in the room where you're dealing with those individuals or that couple. So that's more of a play it by ear kind of situation, um, because the goal is to always keep someone safe in that space. I think when you're dealing with coercion or not really feeling like they have a voice as a mental health professional and just the professionals, period. There has to be a game plan, there has to be clear set goals, there has to be strategy so that we're staying on track. Um, and if at any point that's not the case, then we need to pivot because I mean you could also throw in their manipulation. Right. You know, um, because that that's something that I see often too, or alienation of the kids. You know, sharing why we're in this process because that parent slept with this parent's friend, or they had an affair, or they did this. Kids shouldn't know that. Which is sometimes why within high conflict, um, it's good to bring in like a child specialist. So sometimes in some of the cases that I've worked, it's been very helpful to bring in child specialists who are specifically speaking to the children to find out what their wants and desires

Manipulation In The Collaborative Room

SPEAKER_02 18:00

are.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

In my experience working in collaborative cases, I have been in many cases where there's manipulation. In certain cases that I've been in, I feel like one person chose collaborative and convinced their spouse to do it because they thought they'd have a room of people behind them trying to convince their spouse of their position. And I've seen that play out several times in collaborative cases. I would say that in the the teams that I've been on, that hasn't worked, but it does make it a lot more difficult and it makes it the process longer to un you know to unravel that that's what's going on underneath. Um, but I in those kinds of situations, as the mental health professional, like when you see those kinds of things happening, what are some strategies that the people in the room, whether it's the professionals or the clients, can use to try to let the mental health professional know that they feel like they're being manipulated?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I feel like for a lot of those cases, most of the time the mental health professional already knows that it's manipulating. You know, um the hard part is, you know, what who are you in that role? What is your um, what are your requirements in that space? In that space, you're the mental health professional as a neutral to keep everyone on track. So let's ask certain questions. Let's, you know, let's go back and look at why we're here. What's our end goal? Why did we start this process, right? Well, we started this process because we wanted to come to the table and both agree on something for our kids. We started this process because we didn't want to litigate and be in court for forever. Okay, so that's why we started this process. How is what we're talking about going to get us here? Why was a stay-at-home parent? So I should be the one to have all of the time with the kids, but should you? Right? If we're getting a divorce, why shouldn't the other parent be held accountable now? Are they not capable? Or can we not control what's going to happen on their parenting time?

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Right. Yes. Well, that's a very hard thing to do. I know this myself, my own personal experience. Hey, get it.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah, get it from mine as well, right? But I just think that it's those questions. It's having to help people travel down that thought. And I and manipulation can happen on both sides because it's very interesting sometimes sitting in the room. You can probably take this and put this in a financial perspective too. When you're the professional and in this specific area and you're watching probably both people play into their actual feelings

Why Money Fights Feel So Personal

SPEAKER_02 21:01

about something, right? And then that is what's coming out when we're talking about how do we dissolve this marriage? Where do our children go? What happens to our money? Because all of these things are very emotional points of conversation. Money is emotional. Well, if you wouldn't have spent this over here, or if you would have done this over here, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, I mean, we both kind of did a thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Money is extremely emotional. And I think there's a lot of fear for people around money, whether it's that they're losing money that they thought was just theirs, even though it's when you know when you're married, everything that accumulates is marital. And thinking about am I still going to be able to retire? And the other person that is a lower wage earner or a stay at home parent is afraid that they're going to be destitute and they don't know what life is going to look like. I feel like from the financial perspective, my job as a neutral to provide clarity. To be able to show people, like, let's stay away from the emotions for a minute. Let's just look at the facts. Let's look at the numbers. What do the numbers show? This is what settlement A looks like for both of you. This is what settlement B looks like. And so my role is always outside of the emotions. However, I'm in the room with people that have a lot of really big emotions. And sometimes it's hard to get to the bottom of it too. So it's not just a matter of I have to keep the house, but what is it about the house specifically that is so important to you? Is it continuity for the children? Is it that you're going to have the same community support? Is it that you just you decorated it and you have a lot of emotional, you know, intensity invested into the house? So that's why, again, I'm always so appreciative in a collaborative process that we have a mental professional in the room. All my litigated cases, we don't have anybody in the room. There might be somebody who's in the room because they've been talking to a therapist, but we don't know what the client is saying to the therapist and vice versa. So it is so helpful to have that perspective, seeing where everyone's coming from and trying to unpack

How To Regulate Before You React

SPEAKER_01 23:13

it. Is there anything that you would recommend, Saida, in terms of how to regulate their emotions when they go into a collaborative session or any conversation with their spouse about settlement so that they don't get triggered and reactive? Something comes up that that hits that hot button for them.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I would say being aware of what your triggers are, being aware of what's frustrating for you, being aware of what's frustrating about your soon-to-be ex. Um because those are going to be the things that trigger you in the moment. And um being okay with asking for breaks. You know, being okay with asking for breaks, asking for what you need. If you have questions where you need a pause and you need a second, maybe with the mental health professional and your attorney, or your attorney and the finance person because maybe you want a little bit of extra clarity. Being okay with asking, like, you know, hey, can we repeat that again? Because I didn't quite catch it or I missed it. Like just being okay with um, knowing that it is fine to have a voice, but trying to remember what the end goal is. Like, what am I doing this for? Because you started this process for a reason and this was the chosen path, right? And so why was this the chosen path and trying to keep that at the forefront of what's happening? Um, I would also say making sure that when you're going through a divorce, have a therapist. Like have your own space. Because in this space, the mental health professional is there to help with the divorce process. Right. Not necessarily help you from a therapeutic perspective, because they have to remain the neutral in that space. That doesn't mean that they can't have a one-off conversation with you. It doesn't mean that you can't schedule an appointment because maybe you're struggling or you're frustrated and you're trying to process through what's happening in the meeting. All of those things you're welcome to have within a collaborative divorce process. Just like you could have an additional session with the financial neutral, you know, those things exist, but having your own individual therapist to be able to process through, you know, the emotional side is something different that the mental health professional within the collaborative divorce process has to be careful and mindful of. So, you know, having your own support system is extremely important. And I would just say making sure that when you start the process, you're breaking down what your goals are, like what you really want to get out of this, what you're mad about, what's going to be a challenge and piece for you, and what you know you might do well at. Know your motivations because when you're clear on your motivations, sometimes it can help you sit at the table in a completely different way, but it can also help the mental health professional be able to um prep the team in its entirety to know what we're looking for because some people's motivations aren't always good motivations. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

That is such a great tip to have your own therapist and not confuse the mental health professional in the collaborative process with as your advocate, but that you're, you know, that you are the the process's advocate, really, that you're there neutrally to help everyone through. Um, that is that's a great tip. Um I think that that, you know, as it's it's a difficult role to be a neutral in these situations. I sometimes find it difficult myself to be neutral. It's a little bit easier for me because I always revert back to let's stick to the facts. So, you know, if we're getting emotional about what rate of return to assume for um, you know, what someone's investments are gonna grow at, well, we can I can talk about, well, we could use 3%, 4%, 5%, and these are the reasons why. Um, but to be a neutral when we're talking about feelings, it's gotta be really hard to be in that space. Do you find that difficult?

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Uh it can be. I think when you are dealing with a high conflict, high complex case, it can definitely be. Um, especially for people, um especially for our couples that you know we're arguing about who's bringing snack to soccer practice. Right? Because that means that somewhere you're stuck in a certain place and it's really hard to move past that space. Those sometimes are the most challenging because it's about getting down to what are you what are you looking for? Or why did we start the process? Like, did we start the process because, like you mentioned earlier, you wanted us to be in a room full of people that would agree with you? You know, because we have the means to pay a certain dollar amount to argue about who's bringing pretzels or Cheetos to Cycle Practice, then we probably have the means to pay for a nanny. And then we're arguing about first write a refusal for who's gonna get the kids after two hours. But is that really something to argue about? Or is that, or is it something bigger, right? So it's being able to dive down into, but I need you to come back with me to why we're here. Like, why are we here in the first place? And it's just a lot of reminding, it's a lot of listening and hearing. Because sometimes when we're in those spaces, it's because people don't feel heard. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Exactly. Or they haven't been used to being heard. A lot of times they haven't been used to standing up for themselves or being honest about what they really want. And I think, again, this puts people in a position where I need to say now what I want because I'm one shot at this divorce settlement, and I'm never gonna be able to go back and redo the financial piece of it anyway. The parenting time, that's not the case. We we're getting people sometimes at their worst too, the most traumatic point in their life, the most fearful point in their life. And they're not at their best when they're coming into these conversations.

After Divorce Support And Co-Parenting Help

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Do you ever meet with people after the divorce is over? Once the divorce is final, do they ever come back to you for co-parenting assistance or um Sometimes, sometimes yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Sometimes yes, right. And those maybe have been situations where um it's been extremely intense and they felt like they were heard. Um, and that tips were given during the process that they really need help, you know, bringing to fruition. What do we do? How do we do it? Or they'll reach out to say, hey, Sayeda, can you please give us somebody that you trust that will help us, you know, walk through this process? Um, also, sometimes I have had people reach out to find what they need in terms of like a child therapist, because maybe they're struggling as parents, um, or there has been some control within the marriage. And, you know, maybe they're trying to strengthen themselves. The other parent is maybe trying to learn how to be a better communicator. And so before they can walk into co-parenting therapy, they have to first do like some individual therapy. Um, and so just providing them with resources when it's all said and done.

Choosing The Right Process By Asking Questions

unknown 31:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Thank you so much. Is there anything that you want to talk about that we didn't bring up?

SPEAKER_02 31:17

No, I think, you know, I would just say it's all about remaining open, right? Like, what is the best process for my family, for our family? Um, whether it's two dogs, you know, some goldfish or some children, right? What is the best process for our family? What's the best process for our finances? It doesn't hurt to call people to ask questions. When I have people come in and they're talking about thinking about getting a divorce, I hand them a whole sheet of attorneys and financial people that I know that I trust them and I know that they are good to work with. I hand them a sheet and I say, call these people and ask them questions, right? Ask and then you'll find out the best steps to move forward and go from there. And it's people on there that do strictly collaborative, it's people on there that do litigation and collaborative, and it's people that only do litigation, you know? But they're there. You can ask questions. And that's what the important part is, um, versus not asking questions and having no idea what your options are.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Excellent point. I I agree. And a lot of people skip that part. They don't investigate. If one spouse says, I think we should do it this way, they don't go that further step in looking at what are the pros and cons for me of this process? Um, what, you know, what is it gonna look like if I'm in a room and I'm being told that I need to agree to something and I'm not clear about what it is. Am I gonna feel comfortable saying that? Um, and of course, that's what the attorneys are there for. In collaborative, each each client has their own advocate, their own attorney advocate. So the, you know, there is that support system that's that's theirs. Um, but the attorneys are also thinking about the fact that they want to keep the family intact going forward and what's the best thing for the family. So it's still, you know, it is a team approach with a little extra support

How To Reach Saida And Final CTAs

SPEAKER_01 33:20

from your attorney. Um, I so appreciate your time. And we're gonna have your contact information in the show notes for this episode. If anybody re wants to reach out to you, do you do only in person? Do you do Zoom? Do you do a little bit of both?

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Oh, I do a little bit of both. So we do um virtual and in person. And for me specifically, I do um coaching and mediation, not just in Michigan, but outside of Michigan. And I'm also licensed in other states. Um, you know, it it's it's a plethora of things over here.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Okay, great. So yeah, we've got listeners all over the country. So if they hear this episode, they can still reach out to you and see if you could help them. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

When you're facing divorce, you deserve an advocate who understands what you're going through and who's dedicated to protecting your future. At Dawn, divorce attorneys for women. Our mission is simple: to help women move forward with clarity, confidence, and strong legal guidance. Whether you're just starting the process or feeling overwhelmed by what comes next, our team is here to support you every step of the way. Schedule a free consultation today and learn how we can help you take back control of your life. Visit women's rights.com slash free consultation video to get started.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.